Yet another request for safe advice

[rockhopper46038]

I've lurked for a bit, and finally joined - and I have a question

I've seen a lots of replies to people with safe questions and hoped the community might provide me with some advice as well.

I stumbled on to an opportunity to purchase an ISM Cash Vault safe that is marked CV 75 68. I can't find specific reference to this number in the ISM price sheets I've found on the web, but it appears to measure about 78"H x 29"W x 33"D. The combination works (S&G Group 1 dial), but they do not have the secondary key for the door, nor the key to lock the combination dial. Fortunately neither of those locks are engaged, so the safe is functional as-is.

My question is, can a new key be made for the door (and not as importantly, for the dial) and how much would that cost? Also, there are numerous 1/8" to maybe 1/4" deep holes all over the door and sides, as if someone did try to drill into the safe, but none of them seem to have gotten very far. Can these be filled/repaired or do they even matter?

What kind of value would you put on this safe? I can get it for a about $1500, which seems a pretty good deal for a TLTR-30x6 safe, but cosmetically I think I'd want to have it stripped and repainted and there is a small patch where it looks like a coating of some sort that is about 1/16th to an 1/8th of an inch has peeled off - is that repairable? It's distinctly thicker than paint, and I wonder if it is some sort of additional insulating layer.

Lastly, the thing must weigh north of 3500 pounds - is it even conceivable to move this down a straight flight of standard wooden stairs to a basement? I could keep it in a garage, but I'd much prefer it in the house.

I'd like to fill it with the usual - some guns, some precious metals, some important papers. The house is alarmed, but I'd still like a place to store the really valuable stuff for my own peace of mind. I picked up a "C" rated narcotics plate safe on the cheap, but alas it has run out of storage space and when I ran across this ISM it has given me pause to consider buying it.

I will be asking some of these questions of a local safe technician come Tuesday, but thought there might be someone who is bored enough to impart some info to a newbie yet this weekend.

 

[a1abdj]

My question is, can a new key be made for the door (and not as importantly, for the dial) and how much would that cost?

A new key can be made. If you have somebody that specializes in high security key locks locally, they may be able to do it. I usually send them out. Could cost a few hundred dollars, depending on the specifics of the lock.

Also, there are numerous 1/8" to maybe 1/4" deep holes all over the door and sides, as if someone did try to drill into the safe, but none of them seem to have gotten very far. Can these be filled/repaired or do they even matter?

1/8" holes are usually not large enough to open one of these types of safes. Where exactly are the holes? Are they in areas where alarm sensors and wiring may have been run? If so, it should be an easy fix.

If they were holes used to open the safe, that's a different story. You can verify this by looking inside the safe to see if any of the holes came all the way through, and were later filled.

Lastly, the thing must weigh north of 3500 pounds - is it even conceivable to move this down a straight flight of standard wooden stairs to a basement?

Very unlikely, and even if it was possible, very expensive.

On any "good deal", I would pay a pro to look it over to make sure the safe is usable as it sits. I always suggest new locks, since you never know the history of the locks on the safe. A lock out on a safe like this will cost you several times more than the asking price.

 

[rockhopper46038]

Thanks much for the reply! I do have someone locally who produces bitted high security keys, but I imagine it would still be more expensive than I'd like to spend to have what essentially seems to be a "day lock"; but it's worth asking I suppose.

The holes are very, very small (like a#6 or #8 machine screw diameter, or about 1/8" at most, and they don't penetrate the walls or doors by much more than 1/8" or 1/4". I probed them and they definitely do not reach the inside of the safe. They seemed to be kinda grouped around a particular area on the right side of the safe, with a couple on the door up near the top. The ones on the door could conceivably have mounted a magnetic switch of some kind, because they are somewhat aligned from the top of the door - but they are pretty widely spaced. The ones on the side look like a pattern of buckshot - no rhyme or reason. I might be able to attach a picture.

They also did not have the square tipped key to open the panel on the back of the door to look at the lockwork, but I was able to depress by hand the little rod on the inside hinge side edge to allow me to throw the handle back and forth to verify the function of the bolts and to test the combination. I think having a technician look it over would be a very wise idea - do most technicians carry with them the tools they need to open up the door panels and change out the lock or at least the combination? I happen to have access to Sargent and Greenleaf and could probably get a pretty stellar deal on a new mechanical dial lock; do you have a suggestion as to which lock would be a good choice?

 

[a1abdj]

Thanks much for the reply! I do have someone locally who produces bitted high security keys, but I imagine it would still be more expensive than I'd like to spend to have what essentially seems to be a "day lock"; but it's worth asking I suppose.

I don't see a lot of ISMs here in the St. Louis area, so I'm far from an expert on them. The ones that I have seen have Mauer 9 lever Rhenus locks. You should be able to get a quote over the phone.

Some of those holes make a bit more sense to me than others, but they certainly appear to be where sensors were mounted, and where wiring clips would have held the wiring running to them. A little body putty in those is all it takes.

do most technicians carry with them the tools they need to open up the door panels and change out the lock or at least the combination?

The few ISMs that I work on have the keys to the door panel, and I detest key work. Somebody familiar with them could likely pick those locks. They are there to prevent somebody from getting to the lock and figuring out the combination. For your use, they are not that important. Even if they needed to be drilled or otherwise damaged, it shouldn't be a big loss.

Anybody who works on safes should have no problem changing the combination.

do you have a suggestion as to which lock would be a good choice?

S&G 8550

 

[CB900F]

Rockhopper;

This is a unit that I'm not familiar with either. I'm sure the small holes are mount points for whatever alarm/wiring was at one time attached to the safe, and not a security concern to you. Whatever body shop you get to repaint it can fill those, you'll never know that they were there.

Is the day lock a single key or a double like a safe deposit box lock? Regardless, I think I'd either have that lock replaced with a single key type that your local locksmith is familiar with or have the whole assembly removed if possible. Making a key for the current dial should be mere apprentice work for a good shop. That would be a perfect time to have the lock inspected & determine if it needs to be replaced. If that proves to be necessary, the S&G 8550 would be a good choice.

Don't even think of trying to take that down a flight of household stairs. It's highly unlikely that the stairs can safely bear the weight without extensive modification, and it's also an excellent chance to get somebody seriously injured or worse. I've moved many Graffunders up & down stairs over the years & I don't think I'd touch that little chore with the dirty end of a ten-foot barge pole.

900F

 

[rockhopper46038]

Thanks CB900F (I had a CBR600F2 back in my younger years), it appears the basement may be out for me, unless I can get someone willing to thread it through the below grade window

The lock I was referring to as a "day lock" has a little cover over it that swings out of the way and reveals a keyhole. In the product literature I have found this 2nd lock is called a "9 lever double-bit key lock". It is separate from the dial locking key lock on the face of the S&G combo dial. I'll try to attach some of the product literature I've found. This safe doesn't have the exact dimensions of any of these in the literature, but it is of this line.

 

[CB900F]

Rockhopper;

If you don't need the day lock for your personal use, my suggestion to have it removed still stands. Mammaries, goldfish, things like that.

Current ride is a Ducati 848EVO. The old 900F is still active & around but is actually a 1025 superbike with an engine built by an HRC mechanic & too valuable for a daily driver. But a whole lotta memories in that bike.

900F

 

[RedAlert]

Gravity

Just have a crane deliver it to the roof. I'm pretty sure it would make it's own way to the basement. ;-0

Just kidding of course.

3500lbs is pretty heavy. It would take a winch or block and tackle, some support beams and plywood to cover the stairway and then make darn sure no one is between the safe and where it would come to rest in the event the winching system failed. The really only safe way would be to hire some professional movers.

Good luck..

 

[rockhopper46038]

Thanks guys for all your help and information. I got the safe delivered today (and got a couple hundred more off the price, which was nice), and while it took some effort for sure, the guys who moved it did a great job. They had a hydraulic trailer that kinda squatted down to the ground and a 5500lb capacity pallet jack, and a LOT of wood cribbing - it was actually a pleasure to watch someone who obviously knew what they were doing. The technician checked it out on site before loading it up and told me everything was in perfect shape, and that the S&G lock was an 8550 Group 1 dial. When he popped open the door panel on the back it turns out that the secondary keylock/deadbolt had never been installed (and that whoever had moved/installed the safe the last time had never bothered to remove the pins that secured the relockers for transport ), so no need for me to get a new key for it. All the guts moved freely; he spent quite a bit of time with the works inside the door panel. I wasn't sure exactly what he was doing, but he seemed to be rotating all the bearings, checking to see when the cams engaged, checking the point at which the bolts auto-locked, looking inside the lock case itself, and checking the swing of the door - he seemed pretty thorough. So I'm pretty happy. It's overkill for a gun safe, but at the price I don't think I could have gotten anything else close to as heavy duty a safe.

I know that you always run out of room in your safe (this is my second) but this one ought to hold me for awhile.

 

[CB900F]

Rockhopper;

When you close the door, they breed in the dark.

900F

 

[BigCheese]

The ultimate in protection for your guns

Sometimes heavy steel construction is just not enough to deter burglars. I have my pistols in a TL-15 safe. Access to the contents is poor, but there is a lot more protection than the residential security containers. I have added an additional layer of protection, as you can see in the attached photo. If a safecracker should be able to open the door, he will get a surprise of vicious claw and fang ready to tear him apart!