You might want to rethink your Home Defense gun

[NWPilgrim]

What has changed a lot for me over the last 30 years is carry at home. I used to be confident with a pistol and shotgun in the bedroom closet. I don’t know if the total armed homes assaults (burglary, home invasion, mistaken gang hit) has increased. But it certainly seems the level of savagery and weapons has increased. It seems Meth really upped the ante on what addicts will do to get relatively little in return. So now I carry 90% of the time at home even with my normal extra mag. And I have added a Carbine to the ready arms with the xtra mags for both. A single person is at a disadvantage against several attackers but there is no sense not being prepared as best I can.

 

[herrwalther]

I was just thinking about this very thread on Thursday on my way home when I stopped by the local gun store. I really wanted to get a Maverick 88 with an extended mag tube they had on sale. But wouldn't be able to explain the purchase very well to the Mrs. So I got a stripped AR lower instead, easier to hide the purchase of. Maybe a AR pistol project to move along with.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The take away that I got from this wasn't "I need a higher capacity gun." My take away was "Don't expect the criminal(s) to run just because you're shooting back.

This article by Greg Ellefritz was posted in 2013

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/training-vs-experience

Most people “know” that criminal attackers don’t take formal training classes and they assume that if an honest citizen has a couple of good training classes under his belt, he will beat the untrained, poorly skilled criminal in a fight. This may be true, but in some cases it’s not. Let’s look at some research….


The FBI put out a publication several years ago titled “Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers.” In it, the researchers identified 40 cases of serious attacks on police officers and then interviewed both the officers and the attackers involved in each case. They talked to both about the training they received, weapons usage, practice habits, and attitudes towards violence. The results were remarkable.

I seem to remember someone posting it as a thread here and the most common response was (paraphrased) "All I need is my .38 Snubby because once I start shooting the crooks will run."

What Gunny is telling us is you'd better be ready for when they don't.

I worked as a roving security guard for the city for two years. One of the biggest lessons that I learned was that most of the street people weren't intimidated in the least by the fact that I was armed. A couple of them even tried to take my gun from me.

I live in an apartment. There are limits to what I can do to harden my home but I do what I can. I also base my home defense plans on the assumption that the bad guys aren't going to run just because I'm shooting back. I also don't depend on the presence of potential witnesses to deter a home invader. A few years back there was a dispute between two roommates and one of them showed up in the middle of the day to get his stuff. He kicked the door down and not a single person questioned it.

Notice how I got through this whole post without mentioning my home defense weapon once?

 

[jar]

With regards to home invasion...
Consider hardening your doors and windows to make it so they can't be easily "kicked".
This means steel doors & frames and "security" storm doors.
Also consider outfitting INTERIOR doors with steel doors & frames with deadbolt locks that can be unlocked from the inside (example bedroom door) or are double cylinder (example: kitchen to basement, closets, bathrooms).

While doing this type of hardening won't stop the marines, and it isn't the intent to do so, all you need is 30 seconds maybe less to prepare.
Also, knowing where an intruder can and can't go easily is a HUGE tactical advantage.

I use and suggest a few additional steps.

In addition to a steel door and frame I make sure the dead bolt is extra long and to get to the steel door a threat must first get through a locked security glass storm door.

Outside I use arrays of solar powered and motion activated lights which can also provide directional information. Inside I use IOT lights that I can control and activate using Alexa (or other voice activated means). This allows me to selectively light certain areas so the threat is in bright while I and family are still in the dark without giving the threat additional information on my precise location.

The person with the most and best information about the other party has a distinct advantage.

 

[herrwalther]

The take away that I got from this wasn't "I need a higher capacity gun." My take away was "Don't expect the criminal(s) to run just because you're shooting back.

One leads to the other in many instances. Say the HD weapon is the 5-shot 38 snub nose. Comes down to tacks and you start to use it, hoping the crooks run away. Either a) you run out of ammo, which they will figure out quickly if they aren't gone b) they are shooting back at you or c) you have multiple targets. Sure you may not need that ultra high capacity pistol, AR, or shotgun, but the point might be to throw some speed loaders or strips next to that 38. That was the spin I got anyway.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Or you could, like, hit what you're aiming at and you won't need to fire 20 rounds in your own home.

 

[SharpDog]

For me it's several big dogs, lots of clutter (stacks of heavy boxes, not really a tactical decision but it makes moving around my door VERY, VERY difficult for anyone not expecting it) and strategically placed firearms ending up at an AR pistol in 7.62x39 with red dot and light.

Aw shucks

I forgot all of my guns were lost in that horrible boating accident

 

[Gridley]

Or you could, like, hit what you're aiming at and you won't need to fire 20 rounds in your own home.

If I always hit exactly what I was aiming at I'd wouldn't need more than 1 round per assailant - and I wouldn't need anything more than a .22LR. Quite a number of post-incident and post-combat studies bear out that people who are better shots than I am still miss quite often. I have no reason to expect that my marksmanship will degrade less than that of a trained infantryman (or cop, if you prefer, though on paper I can out-shoot some of them). In fact I expect that, surprised in my own home in the middle of the night, my accuracy will degrade *more* than trained personnel who have had a short time to prepare for a gunfight.

I hope to never fire any rounds in my home. If I have to, however, I hope just as fervently that I can fire enough to eliminate the threat.

 

[Ivy Mike]

If I always hit exactly what I was aiming at I'd wouldn't need more than 1 round per assailant - and I wouldn't need anything more than a .22LR. Quite a number of post-incident and post-combat studies bear out that people who are better shots than I am still miss quite often. I have no reason to expect that my marksmanship will degrade less than that of a trained infantryman (or cop, if you prefer, though on paper I can out-shoot some of them). In fact I expect that, surprised in my own home in the middle of the night, my accuracy will degrade *more* than trained personnel who have had a short time to prepare for a gunfight.

I hope to never fire any rounds in my home. If I have to, however, I hope just as fervently that I can fire enough to eliminate the threat.

Or you could like, hit what you're aiming at.

 

[donandmax]

I think a AR carbine has many features to recommend it, including: ease of aiming vs a sidearm, low recoil, high capacity, and reduced over-penetration (with appropriate bullet selection). I can live with the noise as a trade-off.

Fire this weapon in a house and you'll need a new set of ears if you survive.. Actually just about any weapon in an enclosed area (except 22 cal.) will make you deaf.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Or you could like, hit what you're aiming at.

A statement made clearly by someone who has never been shot at or had to shoot someone.
Paper targets don’t shoot back.

 

[herrwalther]

Or you could, like, hit what you're aiming at and you won't need to fire 20 rounds in your own home.

Or you could like, hit what you're aiming at.

Targets move and return fire. You are never guaranteed an easy shot. There are plenty of people on this forum with more time on the 2 way shooting range than you appear to have.

 

[edwardware]

Fire this weapon in a house and you'll need a new set of ears if you survive.. Actually just about any weapon in an enclosed area (except 22 cal.) will make you deaf.

Yes, it'll be loud. No, not debilitatingly deafening; lots of infantry have mild hearing loss from this situation.

But, the concussion is why I use a 16"bbl on my defensive carbine instead of my handier 10.5". That thing is unbelievably what-just-blew-up something-went-wrong loud.

 

[Ivy Mike]

A statement made clearly by someone who has never been shot at or had to shoot someone.
Paper targets don’t shoot back.

Neither do bad guys who you've put down with well-aimed fire.

 

[Jeff White]

Neither do bad guys who you've put down with well-aimed fire.

I don't know what your experience with shooting under extreme stress is, but I can tell you that training can only prepare you so much. Even with 10s of thousands of rounds on the range and good stress inoculation training you still don't know exactly how you are going to react to that big adrenaline dump until it happens. It's not as easy as standing on the range. And even if you do hit the bad guys with your well aimed fire, there is no guarantee that you will put them down. In the real world people don't drop as if they were struck by lightning when they are shot. Even if your "well aimed fire" is effective, you might keep firing because you don't know that you are making effective hits because the bad guy is still functioning. So you will keep firing.......

 

[mokin]

Yes, it'll be loud. No, not debilitatingly deafening; lots of infantry have mild hearing loss from this situation.

But, the concussion is why I use a 16"bbl on my defensive carbine instead of my handier 10.5". That thing is unbelievably what-just-blew-up something-went-wrong loud.

+1 This one made me laugh. It's even more surprising inside a car.

This thread has made me think about my situation. I think the best way I could improve it would be to move and get a dog. That's my plan anyway.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Neither do bad guys who you've put down with well-aimed fire.

You must watch to many movies. The day that you ever get into a real shooting, I would love to hear about how you had the time for well aimed fire. Most of us have guns for self defense. If we ever have to use our guns it will most likely be in reaction to an attack to defend ourselves. It’s the bad guy that most often starts the shooting. You should hope that his first shot is not a well aimed one.
But like I have said before. “ Some people think they know a lot about things they know very little about.”

But this topic is not about how good a shot you should be. It’s about what you use to defend your home. And to give some insight on how criminals have upgraded their weapons.

Someone said that people arm themselves because they are scared. For most of us this is not true. I say that the ones that don’t arm themselves, because they believe that someone else will be there to protect them, are fools.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Yes, it'll be loud. No, not debilitatingly deafening; lots of infantry have mild hearing loss from this situation.

I was a 13B

What is this mild hearing loss you speak of

 

[Trunk Monkey]

You must watch to many movies. The day that you ever get into a real shooting, I would love to hear about how you had the time for well aimed fire. Most of us have guns for self defense. If we ever have to use our guns it will most likely be in reaction to an attack to defend ourselves. It’s the bad guy that most often starts the shooting. You should hope that his first shot is not a well aimed one.
But like I have said before. “ Some people think they know a lot about things they know very little about.”

But this topic is not about how good a shot you should be. It’s about what you use to defend your home. And to give some insight on how criminals have upgraded their weapons.

Someone said that people arm themselves because they are scared. For most of us this is not true. I say that the ones that don’t arm themselves, because they believe that someone else will be there to protect them, are fools.

You're being trolled.

Probably by a guy who carries a Taurus 24/7 as his EDC

 

[Jeff White]

edwardware said: ↑
Yes, it'll be loud. No, not debilitatingly deafening; lots of infantry have mild hearing loss from this situation.
I was a 13B

What is this mild hearing loss you speak of

I was an 11B for 20 years. The VA rated me 20% disabled for hearing loss and the tinnitus that goes with it. I wouldn’t call it mild.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I was an 11B for 20 years. The VA rated me 20% disabled for hearing loss and the tinnitus that goes with it. I wouldn’t call it mild.

At the risk of thread drift I destroyed my hearing the very first time I shot an 8 inch howitzer without hearing protection. So I don't think I can accurately assess any extra damage small arms fire may have done to me.

I just know my last hearing test showed significant hearing loss.

 

[Jeff White]

At the risk of thread drift I destroyed my hearing the very first time I shot an 8 inch howitzer without hearing protection. So I don't think I can accurately assess any extra damage small arms fire may have done to me.

We shouldn’t minimize hearing loss so a little thread drift in that direction is good. Even with all of the emphasis the military places on wearing heating protection most Infantrymen leave the service with at least 10% disability for hearing loss. Granted, no one is going to get that kind of exposure defending their home. But we need to be prepared for the fact that discharging firearms in an enclosed structure will most likely render you temporarily deaf and one needs to be prepared to function that way in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

 

[40-82]

We shouldn’t minimize hearing loss so a little thread drift in that direction is good. Even with all of the emphasis the military places on wearing heating protection most Infantrymen leave the service with at least 10% disability for hearing loss. Granted, no one is going to get that kind of exposure defending their home. But we need to be prepared for the fact that discharging firearms in an enclosed structure will most likely render you temporarily deaf and one needs to be prepared to function that way in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

Another phenomenon a shooter ought to be aware of is a thing called auditory suppression. In high stress situations, the mind somehow suppresses a very loud sound. This could be important if the pop of the gun doesn't sound right, and it leads you to think you've just let off a squib that might not have left the barrel. I've never experienced this with a .357 magnum, .44 magnum, twelve gauge shotgun, or any high intensity round on the order of a 30-06, but with older cartridges that fire large bullets at relatively low velocity it can be quite noticeable.

The phenomenon you're describing is noticeable enough that it might pay to consider keeping something like a .45 ACP in the bedroom rather than a .357.

 

[lemaymiami]

My experience with 22 years on the street (sounds better than behind the wheel of a car...) taught me that there's simply no way to predict how you (or anyone else) will react under extreme stress - no matter how well prepared you are... That goes for good guys, bad guys, and just plain ordinary folks. The big strong physically capable individual freezes in the moment (and may need to change his or her pants afterward...) the wimpy, small librarian type might just turn into a tiger - and not be able to explain it afterwards at all... Putting it mildly, the actual results of an armed confrontation can be so random - that you're very smart to avoid one at almost any cost...

One individual takes a minor wound and is not only out of the fight - but might actually die from it... the next individual, hit with several killing shots (remember we're talking good guy/bad guy - all the same when you get right down to it physically...) might actually kill their opponent before going down from wounds that should have killed them on contact....

Prepare as well as you can. Train to be able to function when others can't. Then pray that the wolf never comes to your door...

My assumptions if I'm ever in that situation again... is that I'll be facing more than one opponent - and they'll likely be better armed than I will at that moment. Once again, pray it never happens since the "good guys" don't always win...

 

[donandmax]

I was an 11B for 20 years. The VA rated me 20% disabled for hearing loss and the tinnitus that goes with it. I wouldn’t call it mild.

The VA rates me 64% disabled all because of hearing loss from shooting with no ear protection. And yes tinnitus which got me 10% more..