Zero Shots To Stop A Threat?

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McBubba

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Zero Shots Fired. How Many To Stop A Threat?

The other night I had a dream that ended with a scenario where zero shots to stop the threat was the best option. So here it goes.

It was a cold cloudy evening just after sunset. I was a passenger of a car that was driving around and ended up in a more commercial / seedy part of town. As luck would have it the gas gauge pointed to empty, so we began to search for a station. Driving along a main artery we could see the lights of various gas stations in the night sky. The first station was at our left with a side street before it. We saw that the price was a bit high and thought we should look for a better price. So we turned into the side street where just past the corner gas station on the right was an auto repair shop. I got out of the car and went into the shop to ask the guy where the cheapest gas was located. He was friendly and pointed to the area further up the main street and named the best spot. He pointed to the back of his shop where there was an open garage door opened to the next street parallel to the main road. I started toward that way as I thought that I could catch up with my car as it turned the corner. As I approached the door to turn right I could see that the street was dimly lit and that there was a line of young people moving from right to left. As I exited the building the line was ending and began to disappear around the corner as I realized that it was just a class coming from a school trip with adults interspersed among them. Being aware of my surroundings I could see that the street seemed empty as I continued. The next thing I know is that I'm being grabbed from behind by my belt as I had a short jacket on. I immediately realized I had to fight against a rather larger and stronger fellow. I landed some blows In a variety of soft spots that dropped him to the ground. I ran in the same direction I was in and about 10 to 20 yards I turned to see my attacker jumping to his feet. Realizing that I could not outrun him I turned and drew my weapon with what I believed was a clear mandate for self defense. My attacker had the opportunity, ability and intent to do me harm. As I raised my weapon and yelled stop in the dimly lit surroundings, my foe stopped his rush and said something to the effect that he thought I was one of the kids trying to leave the class group. He turned and disappeared around the corner, and left me with zero shots fired.

I awoke and began thinking about how things would have gone. I had what was probably a good shoot, yet shooting a teacher that was just looking for a wandering kid would have left a deep emotional and psychological scar I would have to live with for the rest of my life. I have a variety of training, shoot in competition, and watch and listen to a variety of gun and self defense related shows as well as belong to a few forums. Some folks believe that if you draw a firearm, that you should do so to use it. Many say that you shot to stop the threat how ever many that is, one, two, three, four, or a failure drill. Whatever it takes to stop the threat. Over some time I've thought about that as part of my travels and during my awareness of my surroundings. I think about just how many shots are required for a particular bad guy. Of course, there are situations that do not allow for that because things just happen too fast. But lately I think that zero shots is an additional and appropriate option.

So the discussion is: instead of drawing your firearm to shoot only, and aside dynamic incidents that don't allow for forethought, can a zero shots fired scenario be as acceptable as a one or two or more shots fired to stop a threat scenario is?
 
Yes, presentation of the weapon may be enough to stop a less-than-zealous attacker. Skeeter Skelton told the story of a local businessman who went bonkers one night, driving through town with his loaded shotgun after threatening (but not shooting) a patrol officer who pulled him over for speeding. Knowing the businessman because of the license number, Skelton met the man at his house. Skelton had his gun drawn and when the man got out of his car with his shotgun, Skelton cocked his gun. The man stopped in his tracks. The moral of the story, Skelton said, is that there are times for the cop to draw his gun BEFORE the shot was fired (granted...this was 20+ years ago).

The point is that yes, the sight of the weapon may stop someone who is not 110% intent on doing you harm. But, the gunowner who draws must do so having made the decision that if the attacker does not cease he will fire. In other words to draw = being willing to shoot. To draw the gun as an attempt to bluff is a very bad decision.

Q
 
Back in 1984, a guy tried to force a friend and me off of the interstate while we were traveling between Jefferson Barracks, MO and Ft. Knox, KY. I believe that he was trying to carjack us and that he may have been a serial killer who was active at the time.

We'd gone to St. Louis to be the OPFOR for a friend's military Explorer post and had a car full of guns and equipment. After a series of intimidating acts against us and other drivers the guy in question began slowing down in front of us, weaving from side to side so that we couldn't pass him.

I told my friend who was driving, to let the guy get on our front bumper, then hit the dome light so that he could see me. When the light came on, what he saw was a guy in an OPFOR uniform pointing a loaded HK93A3 at him. He drew the appropriate conclusion and took off going about 100mph.

No shots fired and no casualties... except possibly our assailant's engine.
 
I only wish my dream recall was 1/10th of yours here. Maybe they'd register then. The dreams I remember are so disjointed that they make zero sense, never mind zero shots.:cuss:
 
This reminds me of the movie “The Holy Grail”…”Maybe if we run away further we’ll confuse the beast!”
 
Four thugs tried to strong-arm rob me on Scott Circle in Washington DC in 1985.
(That would be opposite the circle from where the NRA HQ used to be.)

I snagged the front sight of my Model 10 on the nostril of the Alpha.

He back-flipped into the hedge with his legs kicking in the air while his three cohorts were a-holes and elbows headed southbound on 16th Street.

When I turned my attention back to the Alpha he was headed north with great haste.

I later arrested the Alpha in the booking area of the Third District station when I recognized him as he was brought in by Metro Transit Police on other charges.

You couldn't make this stuff up.


(OP has ONE post :rolleyes: )
 
Crooks and robbers prey on the weak. When someone shows willingness and ability to fight back, they generally haul a$$. There are some exeptions however, and you must always be ready if that's the case. I expect that most are counting on you just rolling over and being a sheep.
 
The academics at Harvard and at various universities in Chicago have found that in the cases of self-defence by firearm. In more than 90% of all situations, the mere presentation of a firearm was enough to stop the threat. That's why the FBI and CDC think that self-defence by firearm occurs in more than 250,000 situations a year even though there were 30,000(more than half suicide) deaths by firearms. So to save maybe 6,000+ or more drug dealers, murderers, rapists, and robbers from being shot to death and allow more than 250,000 incidents of innocent victims, the Brady folks think we should give up our rights.

Twice I've been put in a situation where the other guys pulled knives, I drew a gun and they took off running. Granted I'm a buzzed/shaved headed 5'9" ticked off looking redneck guy that looks eager to play dirty harry from what folks have told me so when I pull a gun I think the guys got the idea I was itching to shoot them and it was best for them to leave. All good by me. If I never have to fire a shot in anger, such a good life that will be to lead, but if I'm left with no choice, I'll still sleep comfortable at night in my bed alive and unharmed. Plenty of criminals out there, were not likely to run out anytime soon.
 
Some years back.....mid 1980's...I lived in inner city Cleveland in an apartment complex in a rather less than desirable area of town. In the few years I lived there I personally had no problems with anyone.

Until one evening.....I was in my car on my way to a shooting range. Some surly & rough looking dudes were milling about the parking lot entrance/exit blocking the way when I pulled up wanting to pull out onto the main road. You know the type: giving out calls to cars going by and basically acting like fools. About 5 of them I think 17 to 22 years old maybe. They just stood there blocking the way. I patiently waited a few minutes until I finally (and politely) ask if they could move out of the way. They ignored me. Just stood there. The looks on their faces and the "vibe" I was getting told me that I ......might....have a problem here.

All I wanted to do was exit the parking lot!

The biggest of them started talking "punk-speak" to me as he walked up to my car door. Instantly I flipped open my gun case on the seat next to me and stated exactly: "I don't want trouble guys.....but I WILL defend myself!!"

I did'nt even pick up any of the three guns in the case. But this dude CLEARLY got a look at them. I don't think it was the Ruger MkII .22 or the S&W K-22 that got his attention but it was the 10" barreled model 29 that did. With mouth hanging open he and his buddies simply and quietly walked away and vanished. Never saw them again.

Ah, but read on and bear with me.....

As I pulled out of the lot I began to tremble just a little bit. I was not even sure I felt like going to the range that day. After all, I had just displayed force...even though I had not even picked up one of the guns. I began to think to myself for a few days after..........what if this presumed thug had called my bluff .......and it WAS a bluff on my part due to the fact that the guns were unloaded and all ammo in the trunk of the car at that time. I felt stupid. Just what would I have done if the guy had reached into the car? Hit him over the head with a long barreled EMPTY model 29? I simply was not prepared that day for an armed self defense situation of any kind. My guns were in the car for enjoyment only, with ammo stowed away.

Who knows if these kids were truly dangerous or not. I'll never know for sure if I were TRULY in any kind of danger that day. Was it dumb of me to display unloaded guns and make a claim of self defense. Perhaps it was. But it was all I could do at the moment.......Jeeez I HAD to say something!.....and the guns were there....on the front seat....unloaded....but there. I guess you could say that a few unloaded guns on the front seat of my car preserved the peace for all concerned that day.

On the other hand.....

Suppose the guy attacked and my gun was loaded.......would I have actually shot this guy? Scary thoughts. I probably would have.

Man! That was years ago. I don't know where those five guys are today but I hope they managed to get their collective **** together and lead productive lives. Maybe they're all in prison. Who knows.

On thing for sure .....the leader of the group came to realize you can't just walk up to any car you want expecting a pushover. As I stated....never saw any of them again.

Russ
 
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RDCL, if he had called your bluff and you felt your life at risk you'd probably be fine just flooring it outta there. His buddies are participating in his crime by impeding you.
 
RDCL, if he had called your bluff and you felt your life at risk you'd probably be fine just flooring it outta there.

Exactly. When you're in a car, that's your first line of defense, whether it's evasion or running the b@$t@rd$ over. If I had some lunatic in front of my truck waving a gun and threatening me, I'd not hesitate to dump the clutch and make him a thug pancake.

On the original topic, yes, many (most) times a gun gets involved, the incident ends without a shot fired. I've only drawn down once, and it turned out to be a drunken guest of my neighbor who simply stumbled into the wrong apartment at 1 am. I was still awake, watching television, and the door was not locked. As drunks do, he opened the door with about 10 times the necessary force, slamming it into the wall. As he stumbled through the threshold, I picked up the Ruger security six and leveled it at him. His eyes nearly came out of his head, and he was gone before I even got up out of the chair. Only damage was probably one pair of undershorts.
 
RDCL, if he had called your bluff and you felt your life at risk you'd probably be fine just flooring it outta there. His buddies are participating in his crime by impeding you.
The lawmakers of the state of Illinois have made the conscious decision that it's better for people to be robbed, kidnapped, raped or murdered than for them to defend themselves outside of their homes with a firearm. Therefore, when I make my annual trip to Apartheid Chicago to visit my mother and chauffeur my various relatives around at Christmas, I always plan for using my mother's car as a weapon.

I wouldn't hesitate to run over or drag a wouldbe carjacker.
 
Thanks for the posts, I'm just trying to be high road with my ccw responsibility.

"This is a dream? Are you sure this isn't just the opening scene from a movie that you are writing?"

Well, I'm hoping to replace Gerrison Keiller some day.
 
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