Gator Weiss
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.58 Cal late civil war production known as Remington Contract Rifle, great gun. Does anyone know why they call it Zouave?
Zouave Rifled Musket
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The Zouaves were a colorful combat unit. Throw zouave rifled musket was never issued but found favor among black powder shooters and reenactors around 1968. Ive had a bunch, hunted, competed and experimented with them since 1968. Killed my first legal deer with one in 1976. Set a national record at the Nationals around 1978. I'm down to one now. One of the first with Remington stamped on the lock plate and then "x-ed" out.
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AlexanderA
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Misnomer. The Remington 2-band rifles were never issued during the Civil War, least of all to Zouave units. (I suppose that the colorful Berber dress of the Zouaves was analogous in some people's minds to the colorful brass-mounted rifles.)
The Remington contract was something of a "sweetheart" deal for Remington, possibly to make up for the low profit margin on the Remington revolvers supplied to the government. Anyway, the rifles were put into storage, and then surplussed out after the Civil War. Some made their way to South America, and others were converted into shotguns for farmers out West.
Quite a few were found in excellent, unissued condition as late as the 1960's. In that condition, a few were sent to Italy as models for reproductions, which were in demand for 100th-anniversary reenactments of Civil War battles. (The reenactors had no idea that these were not authentic. It took a few years for the Zouave to be branded as the quintessential "farb" gun. A reenactor today showing up with a Zouave would be laughed off the field.)
The best of the reproductions are probably the ones made by Antonio Zoli. Whatever you have, enjoy it. These are nice guns. Just don't take it to a reenactment.
hawg
Member
The proper name is Model 1862 Rifle. Bannerman called it the 1863 Contract Rifle and is probably responsible for the Zouave name. None of them were shipped anywhere prior to 1907. They were stored at Watervliet arsenal where they were originally delivered until Bannerman bought the entire lot of 10,001 rifles on August 8th 1907 for .54 cents apiece.
You can thank Bannerman for that misnomer. Put a cool name from a colorful unit and presto- marketing happens.
That said, they were probably the best of the rifle muskets ever made and the Zolis can be excellent shooters as well. We use a group of 5 Zolis in our work with the kids and every one of those rifles is capable of a sub 2in group at 50yd and that's with absolutely no special load development. We go through lots of ammo with the kids in these guns so we settled on a "generic" load with acceptable accuracy. Of the 5 in my possession for this purpose, I decided to do a bit more load development and got it down to about 1in at 50yd with very little effort.
That said, they were probably the best of the rifle muskets ever made and the Zolis can be excellent shooters as well. We use a group of 5 Zolis in our work with the kids and every one of those rifles is capable of a sub 2in group at 50yd and that's with absolutely no special load development. We go through lots of ammo with the kids in these guns so we settled on a "generic" load with acceptable accuracy. Of the 5 in my possession for this purpose, I decided to do a bit more load development and got it down to about 1in at 50yd with very little effort.
AlexanderA
Member
The problem with 2-banders, in general, during the Civil War was the lack of "reach" when mounted with a bayonet. To overcome this problem, they were used with long sword-type bayonets. Those in themselves were ungainly and not very practical.
Due to the huge expansion of the military's during the Civil War, virtually any weapon that could be procured abroad, or in the US, was at one time issued. There were so many different arms types used in the Civil War. I read about Union units complaining about their "Dutch Rifles" at the Kernstown Battle. Well at least the Union Infantry had a gun. The Confederate Cavalry Commander Turner Ashby wrote that his men were woefully armed and equipped. One of his men rode bareback, and carried a club!
The North South Shooting Association has a list of what is acceptable in their shoots
https://www.n-ssa.net/NATIONAL/APPROVED/approved_musk.html
The North South Shooting Association has a list of what is acceptable in their shoots
https://www.n-ssa.net/NATIONAL/APPROVED/approved_musk.html
hawg
Member
They weren't that much longer than the triangle bayonets of the three banders. The three banders still had a lot more reach.
By the time of the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House (May 1864) front line Confederate infantry were positively disdainful of bayonets. From a 4th Alabama Infantry book I read, the Texas brigade had tossed all their bayonets as useless, heavy, encumbrances. At the Bloody Angle, which both the 4th Alabama and the Texans were defending, Union Infantry overcame all obstacles at massive cost, and spilled into the Confederate trenches with fixed bayonets. One reason they were able to get over was due to the fact the Texans had shot up most of their ammunition killing Yankees, and then Texans with empty ammunition pouches faced angry Blue bellies with pointy weapons . According to the book, the very next day the Texans put in a requisition for bayonets, and they got them.
Bayonet use was very rare, but it did happen. Most bayonets were tossed away by troops who hated carrying the things.
hawg
Member
This is true. Most walking soldiers(infantry)don't want to carry one ounce more than they have to.
AlexanderA
Member
In the Civil War, bayonets were a critical component of a unit's effectiveness (for example, take the 20th Maine's bayonet charge at Little Round Top). It was the responsibility of the officers / noncoms to make sure the men did not toss them away.
On the other hand, early in the war many of the volunteers showed up with personally-owned pistols. These were not critical to a (non-cavalry) unit's effectiveness, and so the officers didn't care when the men eventually got rid of them.
In WW2, an equivalent thing was getting rid of BAR bipods. But a BAR is not nearly as effective without a bipod. I would think that officers would frown on this practice.
hawg
Member
Nevertheless many of them were thrown away along with anything else a foot soldier deemed unnecessary weight. A lot of them tossed their knapsacks and carried everything in a rolled up blanket. Many of them even tossed their canteens, most of which leaked anyway.
Men died in the forced marches of the era. I read a book by a Union Soldier, I don't remember which battle his unit was marching to, but it was in the summer. He listed the number of men he knew who fell out and died due to heat exhaustion. Gettysburg was in July, I am sure many Union and Confederates fell out due to heat exhaustion and surely, some died. Soldiers learned to carry only the essential. While I have found bayonet and sword incidents in the Civil War, they were rare. Men did get stabbed and bayoneted, but the number who died from cold steel is miniscule compared to the number who died to cannon fire and musket rounds. Both sides found out, a unit's survival in the open was short. Take Fredericksburg where the slaughter of Union forces, tried bayonet charges, at the Sunken Road.
Most of Chickamauga was wooded. Here is a notable location where the Confederates were to the left, in those woods, and over ran an Union Battery. The Union battery did not have time to turn the cannon, and swords and bayonets were used.
notice all the trees that the Union plague has, this is to emphasise how dense the woods are at this point
the woods today
the woods disappeared in this period illustration. Hero's need to be visible and to be face to face with their enemy.
This part of Pea Ridge, no one got across this field. There probably were ten times the amount of artillery from what is on the battle field today.
The distance between Union and Confederate artillery was 500 yards.
These batteries had infantry support, but no one was getting across those fields. This is what Confederate Artillery Captain John Good said
[the Yankees} opened a perfect storm of round and shrapnell shot and shell... [the ground] was literally ploughed up by cannon ball... It is a perfect miracle that any of us ever came out.
Canister was effective out to 400 yards. I am sure anyone with a bayonet, who charged an artillery battery, loaded with grape and canister, had to have a fatalistic attitude towards success.
hawg
Member
One of my ancestors was in the 8th Mississippi Infantry at Chickamauga. They captured those five cannon from general Thomas and took them off the field. They got the crossed cannon battle honors for their company flag for that.
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AlexanderA
Member
I'd rather have a leaky canteen than no canteen. Virginia can be brutally hot in the summer. I was at the 125th anniversary reenactment of the Battle of the Crater (1989). I had to empty my entire canteen over my head to keep from passing out from heat stroke. Then I had to refill the canteen and do the same thing all over again. If there was ever an event that I regretted participating in, this was it. In fact that was just about the end of my reenacting career.
hawg
Member
People were hardier back then. The 8th Mississippi marched for 24 hours and then fought in the battle of Atlanta. That was in July.
OP
OP
Gator Weiss
Member
I have owned a repro "Zouave" Remington since the mid 1980s and have fired it for years with everything from 1F to 3F and RS, Minie and Round ball and birdshot and buck. Mine does well with Minie authentic hollow base which I cast. 70 grains of black with a little corn meal on top of the powder, either dry or with a touch of lanolin or crisco on my slugs, they fly straight enough. I use musket caps. I have some hawkens and other guns, but I usually take this gun out because I really like it. Progressive depth rifling with 3 cuts seems to work just fine. I dont know why, but she fouls less when I load her tight with a measure of corneal on top of the powder. I use the corn meal to keep bullet lube away from powder. These guns have thick barrels, very rugged locks and stocks, they are a handy length, and I would have been comfortable with one in an infantry mode. The brass doesnt rust, the gun cleans up quick and easy. Anyone who laughs at these guns is an idiot. These are very reliable, handy well thought out muskets. I wont trade mine. I keep this one and I hunt with it too. I have little doubt that Ive gone beyond 10K shots and the gun has held up well. Clean and care for the gun and it does last.
Thanks everyone for the info.
Thanks everyone for the info.
If you have never been to the Chickamauga Battle field you need to go. I recommend the book The Maps of Chickamauga .This book has maps, by hour, of the location and movements of units. I see, according to the book, on the 19th Sept (Day 2) the 8th Mississippi (part of Jackson's Brigade) had moved through Winfrey Field and pushed the Union through the woods towards Lafayette Road. They participated in the night attack between Winfred Field and Brock Field late 19 Sept. The 8th Mississippi is moving with the rest of the Brigade through the battlefield from Day1 to Day 3, which is why many unit monuments have day and time dates. Units are moving and fighting from one location to the next, over some very long distances. The battle of Chickamauga was not a static battle, the participants pushed each other across the landscape. Units would attack, push the enemy away, chase them, run out of momentum, and then a fresh enemy unit would show up and push those guys back or further than where they started. It was like a scrum.
I recommend starting the battle at Day 1, then going through the Day 2 locations and getting out of the car, and into the woods. The battle makes sense if you do that. Most of the fighting was in the woods so get out of the car! Most tourists drive by the fields and see monuments in fields from their cars, but most of the Day 2 fights were in those woods. It took most of my time to visit Day 1 and Day 2 locations, sometime in the future I will do Day 3.
The National Cemetery is 10 miles up the road from the Battlefield. The Confederates weakly perused the Union up that road, which is why the Cemetery is where it is, in Chattanooga. It is worth visiting. I have one friend there, need to visit him again.
hawg
Member
I've been there once. There's a section of battlefield that's never been touched. It's an incredible feeling being out in those woods there.
This is the monument to Han Heg.
From Wiki:
Norwegian American abolitionist, journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Infantry Regiment on the Union side in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga.
He had a statue in front of the Wisconsin Capital till progressives tore it down.
From Wiki:
Norwegian American abolitionist, journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Infantry Regiment on the Union side in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga.
He had a statue in front of the Wisconsin Capital till progressives tore it down.
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