Tisas M1911A1 ASF versus WW2 Remington-Rand

[Old Dog]

The prices of Tisas are clearly going to go up as currency conditions normalize. Buy them now or regret it later.

I would agree. It seems as though in my two LGSs that carry Tisas, the prices of each model have gone up $50 - 100 in just the last couple of months. The Raider seems to be selling like hotcakes, too.

I'd also agree that the quality of this brand is very good, although I base that on my sample size of exactly one (a Stingray in .45 ACP) -- it has exceptional fit and finish, no visible tool marks anywhere nor any cosmetic or fitment flaws I can find. Good accuracy, but more importantly, it's been reliable through its first 300 rounds.

I suspect that I will be picking up one of the OP subject pistols very soon, just because. The last very last1911 I was issued before my unit transitioned to the M9 in late '93 was an old wartime Remington-Rand. Gonna go through boxes to see if I can find my old gun card (for checking it out of the armory) with the serial number on it...

 

[silicosys4]

Which are in awful condition, must worse than most milsurp all things considering. Probably because these were used 40+ years.

Huh?
People are getting nice guns out of the CMP, and the people that arent happy with their guns are able to easily sell them for as much or more than they paid.
I think people are aware that a 75 year old milsurp has got some wear, and are into the evidence of use that it entails.

Cheap generic clones that actually copy the original markings is a big deal.

To some people I suppose. I think more people prefer the acceptance stamps, proof marks, Mfg. roll marks, and inspector stamps of the real thing, instead of the Tisa whicch has only the most generic "U.S. military" marks....not even stamped but plainly laser engraved.

Again this is assuming they stop making them, then they may very well become collectible. Many never thought that PIettas or Ubertis would either, but the first decade production has collectors interest.

If they stop making them, they will die an obscure death. I don't see anybody ponying up collectors money for a Turkish clone when the real thing would be more readily available.

Pietta's and Uberti's have collectors value?
Evidence please.

 

[vanfunk]

Looked at a Tisas 1911A1 today… $369… mighty tempting… and I’m a Nighthawk guy.

 

[FL-NC]

I recently picked up a GI style Tisas 45 in commander size ($330 from PSA) and the 2 tone T10 10mm, to check killing a deer and hog with a "normalish" style service pistol off my bucket list (demo model- $500 direct from Tisas) and I am surprisingly happy with both. The commander size one was an upgrade to a Star BM that was doing duty as an "emergency handgun" that I had staged for use in a place I don't normally have a gun on me.

 

[Jim Watson]

At this point I should mention a quirk of the gun that I noticed. It's impossible to push the slide release down if an empty magazine is fully inserted. (It doesn't matter what kind of magazine.) Maybe this will loosen up over time.

I don't know if it is in the spec, but it is not supposed to. You should not be able to easily close the slide on an empty magazine, you might wish it were full later.

So many of these get used for the sort of "upgrading" you read about back when USGI were cheap surplus and there were gunzine articles about how to mung up you pistol all by yourself. I remember one piece that included acid etching your name or other symbols on the slide.

 

[AlexanderA]

I forgot to mention that it comes in a really nifty fitted case with cleaning rod, brush, trigger lock, chamber flag, and barrel bushing wrench.

(The bushing wrench is not needed because the bushing can easily be removed by hand.)

The cases, including the accoutrements, are also available separately directly from SDS, the importer, for $15 plus postage.

 

[Barmcd]

I've got two Tisas 1911s, one in 45 ACP and the other in 9 mm. The 45 has been flawless since I purchased it four years ago. I had an extraction issue with the 9 mm and Tisas customer service was excellent. I've put 2000 rounds through it with no further issues. I have since replaced the stock extractor with a Wilson Combat extractor.

 

[CapnMac]

There are already better clones out there than any Tisas.

Typically the "bone of contention" is in how accurately those other clones are--not merely for marking & stamps, but the shape of the frames and details on the slides and the like.

Many of the previous "clones" just used off-the shelf parts from current production runs. And "clone correct" has a market share. Buying a modern VW "beetle" is not the same as a "classic" Beetle. The shapes are different, the modern version are front engine, and they have factory a/c and often have automatic transmissions. If those differences do not matter to you, then your "beetle" is as good as any other "bug."

A similar thing occurs if a person just wants a "1911" versus having an M-1911A1. Every so often the details matter.

And, where they don't matter, then they don't. This is part of our current "golden age of guns"--everyone is free to find their own goldilocks that is "just right."

Rock Island was first out of the gate with "affordable" clones, but their contours were not quite right. TISAS has leaned into the market looking for right shape, right details, right markings and right finish. You do not catch the eye of the CMP with mere half-measures.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Tag for later

 

[silicosys4]

Typically the "bone of contention" is in how accurately those other clones are--not merely for marking & stamps, but the shape of the frames and details on the slides and the like.

Many of the previous "clones" just used off-the shelf parts from current production runs. And "clone correct" has a market share. Buying a modern VW "beetle" is not the same as a "classic" Beetle. The shapes are different, the modern version are front engine, and they have factory a/c and often have automatic transmissions. If those differences do not matter to you, then your "beetle" is as good as any other "bug."

A similar thing occurs if a person just wants a "1911" versus having an M-1911A1. Every so often the details matter.

And, where they don't matter, then they don't. This is part of our current "golden age of guns"--everyone is free to find their own goldilocks that is "just right."

Rock Island was first out of the gate with "affordable" clones, but their contours were not quite right. TISAS has leaned into the market looking for right shape, right details, right markings and right finish. You do not catch the eye of the CMP with mere half-measures.

I guess I'm confused. Are we recommending buying a mass-produced generic clone or three instead of a CMP 1911 because the Tisas are...the best of a list of not very accurate clones?
While we are still in a window of opportunity to buy CMP 1911's for (imo)reasonable prices?

The Tisas are nice guns for the money and they are a far better shooter than an original, but calling them the right shape, details, markings, and finish for a RR is a stretch.
Milsurp frames/slides are rough hewn and grainy with mill marks being the order of the day, especially RR's.
They have rough contours and choppy lines.
The font, spacing, and placement of the USGI markings that are there are incorrect...and lasered on.
None of the inspection marks, acceptance marks, assembly numbers, etc are present, let alone follow the very specific order of application pre and post finish.
The ejection port is lowered
Its got a milled trigger, the vast majority of RR triggers were stamped.
The hammer checkering is wonky, nothing like a RR.
The finish is too highly polished. RR's were straight sandblasted then park'd, so you can see tool marks all over it through the rough-as-cobbs finish.

I think they are cool, and honestly, I might pick one up as a range gun at some point, in addition to the CMP gun that I'm entered in round 4 for,
But predicting a mass-produced clone will gain any collectors value as a stand in for a gun that it only loosely resembles when there will be tens of thousands of the real thing out there already is a bit optimistic in my opinion.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Pietta's and Uberti's have collectors value?
Evidence please.

Just an example I am familiar with since I bought one of mine only a few years ago for $400 on consignment at a shop and my first one at Cabelas in 1999 for $350 NIB.

 

[Mosin77]

Just an example I am familiar with since I bought one of mine only a few years ago for $400 on consignment at a shop and my first one at Cabelas in 1999 for $350 NIB.

View attachment 1208517

IMO this has less to do with “collectible” than with lack of supply. If you want the experience of owning and shooting a LeMat you can pay …what… $50,000? for an original, or you can buy a clone for whatever price. And if there are none to be had through regular retail channels, people will pay what they will pay.

 

[JDeere]

If inexpensive 1911 clones make you happy OK. Clones or close copies have been around for years and they have not increased in value. I shoot a lot of milsurps and the only clones I prefer to own is my M16A1 and Winchester M14. They both have all GI parts except for the lower and receiver which are as close to original without the fun switch. People knock CMP because they don't or won't meet the criteria to buy from them. I never got anything bad from them and have been at it since the very late 90s. I guess those TSauce clones are pretty good because the CMP will be offering them for sale. To each his own...

 

[earlthegoat2]

IMO this has less to do with “collectible” than with lack of supply. If you want the experience of owning and shooting a LeMat you can pay …what… $50,000? for an original, or you can buy a clone for whatever price. And if there are none to be had through regular retail channels, people will pay what they will pay.

Soaring prices are evidence of collector value. Some collectors can’t afford an original but they want the item anyway for their own reasons and the next best thing is a reproduction.

Car collectors happily add Shelby Cobra replicas to their collection all the time. These replicas are still in production even but are still highly sought after.

It works with reproduction guns too

 

[silicosys4]

Soaring prices are evidence of collector value. Some collectors can’t afford an original but they want the item anyway for their own reasons and the next best thing is a reproduction.

Car collectors happily add Shelby Cobra replicas to their collection all the time. These replicas are still in production even but are still highly sought after.

It works with reproduction guns too

How many people that can afford the original actually prefer the clone though?
Nobody. Zero people.
Because the clones aren't collectible, they are accessible.

Also, you are comparing very low production cars and guns to cmp 1911's, which are being released by the thousands. Anybody who wants one can get one, unlike an original Shelby cobra or Lemat.

 

[trackskippy]

All this arguing over whats better is actually pretty comical. Just be happy if you have a gun that works without having to fiddle with it. Just wait until those freaking out about the new Tisas find out it wont likely function with anything but ball, assuming it's a "true" copy.

And the same goes there for the GI guns the CMP is selling. They are what they are.

We are where we are in the 1911 world today, because the originals were lacking, and people started modifying them to get them to work and/or be acceptable for anything serious. Some of that was for the good, and a lot of it, not so much. But here we are, and apparently, back at the beginning.

I have three Tisas's, two 9mm's, and one 45. All "basic" guns. All of them needed their extractors tuned and/or replaced right off. The 45 does OK, with mags it likes, and even with LSWC's. The 9mm's have been more of a challenge and a source of a lot of aggravation. They should have stuck with the Colt pattern barrels, they would have been better off.

Regardless of caliber, I have yet to take any of them out and not have some sort of stoppage or problem with them, every time out.

At this point, you could say Im collecting them, but the way I see it, Im basically stuck with them, as they arent worth anything, even for trading fodder.

 

[Slamfire]

Just an example I am familiar with since I bought one of mine only a few years ago for $400 on consignment at a shop and my first one at Cabelas in 1999 for $350 NIB.

View attachment 1208517

Per an inflation calculator, $350 in 1999 is worth $656 today. (After Biden inflation, you better get used to using an inflation calculator) . Obviously $656 is not $2,125.00. Yogi Beri: "Its tough to make predictions, especially of the future" . There are a number of "legendary" firearms that have gone up in value once they are out of production. I always thought the LeMat was a cool pistol, but it was several orders of magnitude more than a M1858 Remington, and for the money, I could buy a S&W or Ruger centerfire revolver. So I missed out once the supply dried up.

I remember the hoozana's over Randall 1911's, and they must have a collectiblity among those old enough to also want Bren Ten's because of the TV show of Miami Vice. I wil predict, sometime in the future, the wow factor of something that went out of production in 1985 will diminish, because new generations will have new hero's. Anyone claimering for a Model A Ford? The things may go 55 mph, but only if the engine is well balanced internally. My Uncle was a Model A collector, the cars were something he remembered as a kid. His generation is almost gone, and so are the childhood memories.

Yesterday I was at the Local Gunstore and there are lots of 1911's on the shelves. The price was between $369 for a Tisas M1911A1, up to thousands. A Standard Manufacturing was well over a thousand. (EEK!) Rock Islands were in the $400 range. If the evil gun ban Democrats ban importation of Turkish firearms, such as they have done with Chinese 1911's, etc, the price on Tisas's will go up, but they will always be bumping against the price of a Rock Island, assuming the evil gun ban Democrats don't find some ideological reason to ban importation of firearms from the Philippines. Tryannical ideologies can find reasons to hate anything, (Aesop The Lamb and the Wolf) so don't put it past them.

There are lots of basic 1911's in production, with modern CNC machinery a 1911 is easiler to make than ever, and a 1911 is a very simple pistol, few parts. Back in the 1970's when Glock used polymers and stampings, he had a real cost advantage. Now, CNC machines can chew parts out of bar stock, of higher quality than stamped or cast, and are cost competitive. Tisas promotional videos show a modern CNC factory, and I am just amazed on how fast they can machine a barrel.







I am not going to worry about a huge price increase on Tisas pistols, as long as the competition continues to make cheap, reliable, well built 1911's. I am sure, for the cosplay people, someone will fill the void with a modern reproduction.

I am going to say, $369 in 2024 bucks, has the buying power of $125 in 1985 bucks. Some of the geezers here remember that $100 back then would buy a zinc 25ACP Raven, or some die cast Jennings. You could not touch a Colt 1911 for a $125 bucks back then, assuming you could find one! These Tisas's are a bargin, get them while you can.

 

[vanfunk]

I would get one of these to enjoy for what it is, and not for what it isn’t. It is a very inexpensive, basic, forged 1911A1 with seemingly above-decent quality, that evokes a classic style. It is NOT a USGI collectible with added value based on its use by American Armed forces for a century. It is NOT a reproduction, it is a reasonable facsimile of a pistol that has a form factor, look and manual of arms of a USGI 1911A1. It does not and will not have collector value. If you want it to be something else, I’m sure you’ll be disappointed. That’s my $.02

 

[earlthegoat2]

How many people that can afford the original actually prefer the clone though?
Nobody. Zero people.
Because the clones aren't collectible, they are accessible.

Also, you are comparing very low production cars and guns to cmp 1911's, which are being released by the thousands. Anybody who wants one can get one, unlike an original Shelby cobra or Lemat.

Well we have a difference of an opinion and likely, perspective, on what is collectible and what is merely accessible.

Well, sometimes they can be both.

 

[starnbar]

Just an opinion, but as long as you are going to be the one to buy and keep it, then fine, just buy to your taste, but realize the resale or trade value of a Tisas is such that it will always be a used Tisas.
As a 60+ year collector, dealer, etc., I acquire with trade or sale in mind, mostly by habit. Turkey gun makers have made some very nice looking guns in the past, but, that is a huge but, the internals and heat treating has in fact been a problem. So I am reluctant to buy based on looks.

So lets hear about the heat treating issues shall we??? I am talking issues now not 20 years ago.

 

[Mosin77]

I’d buy one as a range blaster but realistically .45acp is too expensive these days to tear through without a thought.

But I bet there are plenty of people who would rather have a WWII looking 1911 than a “1990s tacticool” like many of the ones on the market.

And Turkish guns punch way above their weight in terms of value for the price.

 

[Barmcd]

So lets hear about the heat treating issues shall we??? I am talking issues now not 20 years ago.

I haven't heard of any issues with Turkish arms manufacturing. Tisas has an ISO 9000 certified plant.

 

[tarosean]

I haven't heard of any issues with Turkish arms manufacturing. Tisas has an ISO 9000 certified plant.

ISO doesn’t actually have anything to do with what’s being produced.. it’s a QMS process (Quality Management System).

 

[JDeere]

I would get one of these to enjoy for what it is, and not for what it isn’t. It is a very inexpensive, basic, forged 1911A1 with seemingly above-decent quality, that evokes a classic style. It is NOT a USGI collectible with added value based on its use by American Armed forces for a century. It is NOT a reproduction, it is a reasonable facsimile of a pistol that has a form factor, look and manual of arms of a USGI 1911A1. It does not and will not have collector value. If you want it to be something else, I’m sure you’ll be disappointed. That’s my $.02

True and spot on. Just another example. Springfield has had their 1911 A1 available for years that is very affordable. It fit the repro niche for me until the real deal came along. I sold it recently for about what I paid for it 20 years ago. They are indeed just a close facsimile and not exactly correct in several ways. If close is good enough go for it.

 

[AlexanderA]

Tisas, in its ASF model, has done a good job replicating the WW2 configuration. The biggies are the non-lowered ejection port, the non-beveled magazine well, and the lack of the Series 80 firing pin safety. These are things that can't be "corrected" by swapping parts. Ignore the markings.

As for collectibility, we need to clarify that we're not looking at enhancing a collection of original guns. I have several original WW2 M1911's in excellent condition. The Tisas is not part of that collection. What it is part of is a new collection that I've started of M1911 clones. The parallel here is collecting reproductions of Civil War muskets. Some, like the long-discontinued Miroku, have become quite valuable. The criterion here is closeness to the originals, but nobody is pretending that they are originals themselves.

Regarding value and price appreciation, it's important to get in on the ground floor. The lesson here, for me, is the Korean Daewoo K2 rifle. These were being imported in the early 1980's, for ridiculously low prices. And they were being looked down upon by American buyers, precisely because of the ridiculously low prices. Well, imports were eventually restricted to a non-folding-stock model, and then stopped entirely. What started out as a $250 gun now goes for well north of $2,000, if you can find one at all. I should have bought more than just one.

Look for underpriced quality. I think the Tisas qualifies.