Carry Safety

Different styles of guns present different requirements for safe carrying. While best practices dictate that having the trigger guard covered is always a good choice, it is less critical with something like a DA revolver than with, say, a Glock. Carrying in a purse or similar bag is a poor tactical choice, as the purse/bag (and the gun inside) can be easily taken away, and a tug-o-war over it will not lend itself to the victim accessing the handgun easily. What's more, every woman's purse tends to be some sort of "black hole" in which they have to rummage/scavenger hunt to find pretty much anything, even when not under stressful conditions. I have no idea what is in those things, and I wouldn't be surpised if there is a family of illegals residing in there. Mrs. Fl-NC carries a LOT of keys in a cluster of junk with all kinds of more junk attached, and she can never find that ball of junk unless it is snap-linked to the outside of her purse. Very annoying.
 
The shooting world orbits around the wants of the quick draw crowd. Quick draw games have redesigned historic handguns so the firearm can be fired in an instant. It used to be hard to shoot yourself, especially with double action revolvers. Double action revolvers took ten or more pounds to activate the mechanism, so they were actually pretty safe outside of a holster. The original 1911 was intended by John Browning to be carried on half cock, the Army did not trust half cocks and carried it hammer down. Post WW2 the quick draw artists of Cult Cocked and locked modified the 1911 so they could win quick draw games, but at the risk of increasing negligent discharges. That safety is easily bumped in the wrong direction, and then, a light touch on the trigger, boom!
As dangerous as I thought the cocked and locked mode was for the 1911, striker fired pistols are even more dangerous. The only safety many of the things have is on the trigger!


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A firearm optimized for quick draw games turns out to be very easy to shoot oneself with. And so it is, of the accidental shooting reports that make it to the media, I can't remember an incident that did not involve a striker fired pistol. I am sure one or two exist, the vast majority are striker fired incidents.

So the shooting community now accepts it as a given, that their quick draw firearm is unsafe out of a holster, and now are relying on a ancillary device to keep their unsafe sidearm from shooting themselves. Here is a Glock aftermarket device so the owner won't shoot himself in the liver when holstering his Glock: The Striker Control Device (SCD) for Glocks is Back!

Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad!

 
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Quick draw games have redesigned handguns so the firearm can be fired in an instant. It used to be hard to shoot yourself, especially with double action revolvers.
Wanting quick response times with a gun is nothing new. Even many years ago, some were willing to go to great lengths to shave a bit of time off their draw/shoot times. And not just for competition, either.

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Yeah, it's a totally new thing. 😁

Post WW2 the quick draw artists of Cult Cocked and locked modified the 1911 so they could win quick draw games, but at the risk of increasing negligent discharges.
Modified? It's always been capable of being "cocked and locked".
And so it is, of the accidental shooting reports that make it to the media, I can't remember an incident that did not involve a striker fired pistol. I am sure one or two exist, the vast majority are striker fired incidents.
Thinking back on the incidents I've looked at, it's not that uncommon for the articles to fail to provide enough information to determine the gun type. But let's take it as a true statement without trying to verify it. Given the extreme popularity of striker-fired pistols, especially within law-enforcement, it would be pretty amazing if they weren't the most common handguns involved in unintentional discharge incidents. I think it's safe to say that when DA revolvers were what nearly all cops carried, most unintentional discharge incidents involved DA revolvers.

Wanna know how you can dramatically increase your chances of having an unintentional discharge? Tell yourself that your equipment is going to prevent it from happening...

By far, the most common cause for firing a gun and not meaning to is pulling the trigger on purpose.
There's no safety feature that's going to prevent that because that's not a gun problem.
 
Thinking back on the incidents I've looked at, it's not that uncommon for the articles to fail to provide enough information to determine the gun type. But let's take it as a true statement without trying to verify it. Given the extreme popularity of striker-fired pistols, especially within law-enforcement, it would be pretty amazing if they weren't the most common handguns involved in unintentional discharge incidents. I think it's safe to say that when DA revolvers were what nearly all cops carried, most unintentional discharge incidents involved DA revolvers.

I have talked to Vietnam era Soldiers, and can remember two LEO's whose careers extended to the 1970's. They told me of LEO negligent discharges with 1911's, not revolvers, but I am sure they occurred with fools playing quick draw games, with loaded revolvers. One Vietnam Company Officer told me of two junior Lieutenants playing quick draw with their 1911's, and one had a round in the chamber! OPPS!

Based on the recollection of one LEO, after the Department had three negligent 1911 LEO discharges, the Chief banned them for carry. The first was an LEO enthusiast showing off his new 1911, cocked and locked off course, at the Department. Somehow, it went bang!. The second happened due to a surprise weapon inspection. The LEO carrying a 1911 ran to the bathroom to inspect his cocked and locked 1911, before presenting for weapon inspection, and BANG! The third incident happened to a LEO watching TV. He picked up his 1911, aimed at his big toe, pulled the trigger, and BANG! No big toe!!

I talked to a retired Chief, and I remember one story of a LEO in the Department that had an negligent discharge into a huge booking volume with a 1911. They took that guy's 1911 away and gave him a revolver.

The overall impression I have, is that negligent discharge rates increased with 1911's, over revolvers. And it got worse with striker fired pistols. LEO agencies don't publish negligent discharge incidents, so all we have are newspaper accounts and personnel recollections. I am going to claim, the easier it is to fire the mechanism, the greater the frequency of negligent discharges.

I talked to a Vietnam helicopter pilot, and the in cantonment, 1911 carry mode was nothing in chamber, magazine in the gun. This man told me a 1000 page book could be written about all the negligent discharges that occurred in the military. He told me of three that occurred with 1911's while he was in Vietnam. One involved a Warrant Officer sitting on a toliet. He cocked his 1911, aimed at his big toe, and shot off his big toe!

Big toes are in constant danger. A LEO bud of mine told me that his pricint had original, military M1897 shotguns. A LEO had possession of one Trench Gun, was in the elevator, and he had the M1897 muzzle on the big toe of his shoe. This LEO cocked the hammer, and had the compulsion to pull the trigger. Luckily he thought about maybe not pulling the trigger while the muzzle was on the shoe, and so, he moved the muzzle to the floor next to his foot, and then pulled the trigger! When the door opened, all the concerned assembled saw a very embarrassed LEO and a big hole in the elevator floor.

The original carry mode of the Army 1911 was round in chamber, hammer down. While John Browning designed the pistol to be carried on the half cock, the Army must not have trusted half cock carry. However, negligent discharges occurred when the hammer was lowered. The first I found was reported at the 1917 Camp Perry National matches. A civilian competitor lost control of his hammer, in his tent, and 200 yards away a Major was hit and had to be taken to hospital. I am sure lots more negligent discharges happened, because for a time, according to Major Hatcher, the carry mode changed to safety on, pistol in flap holster.

The Navy never trusted anyone with a round in the chamber, and in the Blue Jacket Manual, from 1918 to 1944, the 1911 is carried nothing in chamber, magazine in gun. Assuming the Navy gave the sailor a magazine or ammunition. Ships are enclosed structures with lots of things and people that can be hurt when a bullet starts rattling around.

I asked a Kimber representative why the Army carry mode went from round in chamber, to no round in chamber. He claimed it was due to the 1200 Jeeps that received holes in the transom from WW2 to the 1970's. Hopefully everyone knows a series 70 1911 is not drop safe. Dropped on a hard surface, with enough height, on the muzzle, the pistol will discharge through firing pin inertia. The Kimber representative stated that Officers would take off their hot, bulky, pistol belt and place it on the floor. Either next to the Jeep transom, or near the seat. And then, during Mr Toad's wild ride, the pistol in the holster would whang off the transom with enough force to cause a discharge. Having examined an original WW2 era Jeep, there are protuberances on the transom for holster to hit. And you just have to talk to Veterans to find they drove like maniacs when they could. I recall one episode of Soldiers road racing with their Patriot missile launcher down a German mountain. They went around a curve too fast, lost control, and a missile in its canister went ttobogganing down the slope. The warhead on a Patriot missile will cause one big badda boom, because aircraft are big, and the warhead is a fragmentation warhead, so you can imagine the EOD guy had a lot of pucker factor when disarming and retrieving the missile. It is possible the safe and arming device could have been activated due to the tumble down the hill. Activated as in the arming device being on!

At one time in Iraq, Afghanistan, the number of American fatalities due to negligent discharges was higher than combat causalities.

It is unreasonable to assume that civilians are some how safer, more responsible, less likely to act stupid, than LEO and military. A primary difference is, when a Soldier/Sailor/Marine or LEO shoots himself or another, the Unit Commander's career is at risk, and the agency has financial liability. When a civilian shoots himself, who is he going to sue? When a person who can't make truck payments negligently shoots someone, how much money can the victim collect? Blood from a turnip, so to say.
 
While John Browning designed the pistol to be carried on the half cock...
I think you're going to have a very difficult time backing up this claim, but I'd be interested to see what you have.
He picked up his 1911, aimed at his big toe, pulled the trigger, and BANG! No big toe!!
He cocked his 1911, aimed at his big toe, and shot off his big toe!
Note that in these cases, the person intentionally pulled the trigger. That is, they specifically intended for the gun to operate/drop the hammer, they just thought it was unloaded. This was the most common way that people unintentionally discharged firearms in the poll I posted here on THR. It is worth noting that there are no handguns where this won't result in an unintentional discharge. Revolver, striker-fired semi-auto, hammer-fired semi-auto. They will all go bang if you intentionally pull the trigger to drop the hammer-striker and the chamber turns out to be loaded.

If you look at the poll I linked to, it becomes obvious pretty quickly that the main causes of unintentional discharges have nothing to do with specific characteristics of the firearms involved and a lot to do with what the person is doing with them. We worry about guns going off when dropped and when triggers get snagged, but it turns out that the big problem is people intentionally pulling the trigger.

Expecting equipment, or even carry methods to prevent unintentional discharges is dangerous, as your examples show. The big issues aren't what a person carries or what condition they carry it in, it's what they do with it.
 
Best bet for safe carry seems to me to be a revolver or a DA/SA semi-auto with a stiff DA pull and carried hammer down (needs a decocker and firing pin block in case it is dropped on the hammer spur). Of course one would also have a good holster that covers the trigger.
 
Best bet for safe carry seems to me to be a revolver or a DA/SA semi-auto with a stiff DA pull and carried hammer down (needs a decocker and firing pin block in case it is dropped on the hammer spur). Of course one would also have a good holster that covers the trigger.

I personally thought this was much safer than either a cocked and locked 1911, or one of those striker fired pistols.

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with this pistol, you rack the slide to chamber a round, hit the decocker and the hammer falls. First shot is long, heavy, double action pull. Fast draw gamers did not like the difference between the double action first shot, and single action subsequent shots.

This was an interesting design, the German P-38, which came out in the 1930's.

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You can chamber a round, hit the decocker, first shot will be double action. Or, load the chamber, hit the decock, and put the safety on. This requires taking the safety off to shoot double action. Of course the quick draw gamers hated the direction the safety had to be moved. It must be understood that military sidearms are made for military units. The pistols of this period were carried in flap holsters

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flap holsters are not quick draw rigs. The Germans, like the Americans, had to be more worried about their own troops shooting each other accidental, then their guys losing a classic quick draw encounter. Fastest man always wins:

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Anytime troops are given live ammunition, Officer's have to be on their toes. Major King told me of a big military exercise in which the troops were issued live ammunition. The orders were, don't load till your Superiors tell you to load. Simple instructions, should be fool proof. Was not. An enlisted man in a M113 troop carrier decided to load his Garand before the rear hatch opened. His 30-06 Garand discharged (somehow), the round went through the guy in front, bounced off the rear hatch, and hit someone else. No one was killed, don't know the extent of the injuries. Could have been bad if bones were hit. Major King had other stories he saw during his career.

The assumption with the quick draw crowd is that they will face their enemy, have the time to recognize the threat, have time to access their sidearm, and will have time to come up with a plan. Most of these assumptions are based on what they see in TV's and Movies. Sometimes individuals are given the time and space which enables them to react and come up with a plan of action, and get their weapon deployed. However, watch enough back shooting, inner city surveillance videos, seems the accomplished inner city residents have learned to run up, empty the magazine, before the victim has time to react. It is quite obvious that back shooting is preferred. In my opinion, the time to react, plan, is far more space and "time sensitive" than what ever time savings "condition 1" might give over "condition 2". And you don't have control over the direction nor rapidity of the approach of your assailant(s).
 
GUN TYPE...

Only guns with LOOOONG, HEAVY trigger pulls should be carried in a pocket or purse...but... read any thread about pocket 380's and you'll quickly see this is nobody's priority.

Most glorify how much better the triggers are on some models with shorter lighter pulls, and poopoo anything with an actual safety.

I pocket carry a Bodyguard 380 in a Sticky Holster, my wife carries a S&W model 60 in one of those shoulder sling type purse things (thinking about getting her an Airweight soon).

I myself would never dream of carrying anything striker fired in a pocket or letting her do it in a purse, might as well do it with a 1911 style cocked and locked (and we're not doing that either)...striker and single action guns are to be carried in a holster, on a belt.

Hell yes brother!
 
I get where people are coming from if they're not comfortable with a single action or striker fired pistol for a pocket or purse, but a heavy trigger isn't a substitute for common sense. I don't care how heavy your trigger is, the pistol shouldn't be in an awkward position, with no holster, in a pile of keys and loose change. And even if it's a heavy trigger I wouldn't be a hurry to shove it into the holster.
 
I get where people are coming from if they're not comfortable with a single action or striker fired pistol for a pocket or purse, but a heavy trigger isn't a substitute for common sense. I don't care how heavy your trigger is, the pistol shouldn't be in an awkward position, with no holster, in a pile of keys and loose change. And even if it's a heavy trigger I wouldn't be a hurry to shove it into the holster.
The holster is the key
 
The holster is the key
It's important. But you can still screw that up with a holster in a pocket so loose it doesn't want to stay there, or with a pocket that's so small you can't get a firing grip on the gun. Or with a holster in a purse or briefcase that allows the gun to fall out. Or by having loose crap that can get into the holster.
 
It's important. But you can still screw that up with a holster in a pocket so loose it doesn't want to stay there, or with a pocket that's so small you can't get a firing grip on the gun. Or with a holster in a purse or briefcase that allows the gun to fall out. Or by having loose crap that can get into the holster.
OK a good holster is the key.
 
Feeling better all the time about BodyGuard .380, with its very deliberate double action only trigger. Reminds me of a Centennial, another great carry choice.
Let me suggest the transition from revos to autos may have led to LEO discharges.
My old guard outfit never had an ND to my knowledge, though, once when working the firing line for our Medics to qualify with their 1911s, I had an almost. There was a "cease fire" and my Medic turned to ask "What?" His pistol came around with him. I dropped straight down. Got a brief flash of the 230 FMJ in the bore.
But smart people do dumb things; an old hunting buddy/inveterate smoker had the habit of resting his gun muzzle on his boot, when taking a breather while climbing a hill. He did it once too often, and got a Life Flight for his trouble.
Moon
 
The P5 was the last, greatest example of the P38 family, and is one really amazing pistol. I have two, one of which was (beautifully) hardchromed by someone. They work well, and feel great in the hand. That does-everything lever on the left is unique, as is the ejection to the left. Had Walther gone to a double stack, it might have lasted longer. There's a compact version I'd love to have.
The slide covers the barrel, which somehow presented an issue on earlier German guns, like the Luger and the P38 itself.
There is a way to make the more common P38 magazines work in these.
Moon
 
However, watch enough back shooting, inner city surveillance videos, seems the accomplished inner city residents have learned to run up, empty the magazine, before the victim has time to react.
Actually, even if you watch a lot of videos you will only rarely see that. That's how targeted murders/hits are carried out, but those are not very common. Furthermore, if one does watch enough videos they will see a few where an armed defender was able to successfully defend against even that kind of a "nearly no win" attack.

More to the point, that's a very rare technique for armed robberies/muggings. What is seen quite commonly in videos is that criminals often use their weapons clumsily to coerce the victim to provide valuables, very often giving a victim time to access their own weapon at some point during an armed robbery.

Active Self Protection, on Youtube, provides a lot of real-world videos, with all kinds of outcomes. It can be pretty informative to see how things play out in the real world.
It's important. But you can still screw that up with a holster in a pocket so loose it doesn't want to stay there, or with a pocket that's so small you can't get a firing grip on the gun. Or with a holster in a purse or briefcase that allows the gun to fall out. Or by having loose crap that can get into the holster.
Holsters perform various functions but we often don't think about all of their functions.

Well-designed holsters:
  • Hold a gun securely so it doesn't fall out of the holster.
  • Keep a gun in position so you know where it will be and in what position it will be if you need to access it.
  • Allow the user to acquire a solid grip on the holstered handgun.
  • Release the gun when the user draws.
  • Protect the gun to some extent, both from being damaged by impacts and also from debris and foreign objects.
  • Prevent the controls of the gun from being operated.
Obviously we can defeat some of those features if we try to, or if we use holsters that are not well-designed, or not well-designed for the use we put them to.
 
Actually, even if you watch a lot of videos you will only rarely see that. That's how targeted murders/hits are carried out, but those are not very common. Furthermore, if one does watch enough videos they will see a few where an armed defender was able to successfully defend against even that kind of a "nearly no win" attack.

More to the point, that's a very rare technique for armed robberies/muggings. What is seen quite commonly in videos is that criminals often use their weapons clumsily to coerce the victim to provide valuables, very often giving a victim time to access their own weapon at some point during an armed robbery.

Active Self Protection, on Youtube, provides a lot of real-world videos, with all kinds of outcomes. It can be pretty informative to see how things play out in the real world.

Holsters perform various functions but we often don't think about all of their functions.

Well-designed holsters:
  • Hold a gun securely so it doesn't fall out of the holster.
  • Keep a gun in position so you know where it will be and in what position it will be if you need to access it.
  • Allow the user to acquire a solid grip on the holstered handgun.
  • Release the gun when the user draws.
  • Protect the gun to some extent, both from being damaged by impacts and also from debris and foreign objects.
  • Prevent the controls of the gun from being operated.
Obviously we can defeat some of those features if we try to, or if we use holsters that are not well-designed, or not well-designed for the use we put them to.
Yep a good holster is what is needed.
 
Some are comfortable with the clip that holds the upholstered gun in waistband. My KelTec P32 came with one of those clips and I removed it and use a holster instead. Looks like you can get a waistband clip for most any gun here www.clipdraw.com.
If you're doing a striker gun, something like the RCS Gear Vanguard 2 may be a better option

 
Just go drive down a hwy for 30 min then think the same bozos may own guns and vote too. The world or should say the US is filled with the "gump" factor. The world is not perfect too as was out on my horse once in a nasty trail area with a 629 in a Bianchi shoulder holster and a dead tree limb hooked into the holster got the trigger and pulled the hammer back. I think that may have been a record for shifting a horse into reverse.
 
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