The P320: your gun handling skills are the problem

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Tirod

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As the ongoing hysteria of the "issue" with the P320 is debated over the internet, lets not forget that one significant thing needs to happen to get the gun to discharge: you, the operator of that mechanism, have to fumble it, badly, and make it happen.

It's being ignored in all the debate: what we have here is a major safety issue that is gun owner induced. For all those who choose to put aside their P320's because they no longer trust it, I support your decision. In fact, it's not going far enough. Lock up ALL your guns, because if you are worried about dropping a P320, then the real issue and what is being admitted is that you will drop guns at all.

So, put down the gun safe key, back away from the cabinet, and leave the room. That way nobody will get hurt.

It's been debated for a long time the 1911 will fire if dropped on the hammer. And it seems to be a recurring problem that Glock owners will shoot themselves in the leg by the misfortunate insertion of their trigger finger inside the guard, especially when holstering. Given the larger issues at hand, I'm not worried about SIG's. I worry about gun owners, who have demonstrated an enormous capability to goof up any safety device and shoot themselves or others around them.

Negligent discharges are the bane of gun ownership, what should we expect if we mishandle a gun? It can and will go off, is what you should be thinking, and it should be handled with that in mind. Not "it's safe and can't go off." That is a lie - demonstrated over and over, regardless of gun type or hype - they are NOT safe and can go off.

Carry guns are constantly discussed on forums and their reliability is often the topic, if we are so focused on making sure they will shoot when we use them, then be assured, if you mishandle it and it can go off, it's entirely due to your efforts to have one that will. If you want a gun that can't possibly discharge, ever, no matter how you abuse it, then don't expect it to fire reliably when you need it to. There is a range of options in between those two extremes - think about how far you need to go one way or the other.

But no matter what, if you make an error in the first place, then own it. Dropping the gun at all is the real fault. It's operator negligence, just the same as driving off the road and hitting a tree.
 
**** happens. I never had dropped a weapon until earlier this year my SIG P938 fell out of my holster when I was standing up from the potty. I've dropped a deuce hundreds of times with a holster on, but that day my belt caught the corner of my sink and something funky happened. Somehow the way it fell caused the safety to flip off. It game me some pause for concern over it I should carry it.

No matter how careful you are stuff sometimes happens that you don't intend. You can pretend that you are the exception....until you aren't. It's best to have a weapon that you can trust do to it's job if human error becomes a factor.
 
I agree. There are some issues where the gun may be unsafe (Remington 700, et al), when you have to start giving the angle the firearm must be dropped, as in the P320 30 degree, it is borderline ridiculous. The 1911 70 series was fine, I would be concerned with any firearm being dropped on its hammer, regardless of any "safeties" that were added to mitigate it. I don't know of too many firearms that WON'T go off if you holster it with your finger in the trigger guard :scrutiny:
 
bassjam said:
No matter how careful you are stuff sometimes happens that you don't intend. You can pretend that you are the exception....until you aren't. It's best to have a weapon that you can trust do to it's job if human error becomes a factor.
Click to expand...

This.

Although I do admit to wondering how long it took Ole Gaston to find this "flaw "after he lost his lawsuit and leaked it. Its not like this is a new gun fresh off the press.
 
There are only three categories of people when it comes to Negligent discharges.
#1 Those that will have them.
#2 Those that have had them.
And
#3 Those that will have them again.

I'm still in category #1. Guess I'm lucky. ;)
The plan is to stay in #1, but if you move to #2, you can never go back to #1. If you ever make it to #3, you will forever be in #3.
No one ever wants to move from #1. The sad part is that some will make up any excuse, or blame something, to stay in #1.
 
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People are going to drop guns. That is going to happen. Gun manufacturers realized that several decades ago and spent considerable effort making most guns - particularly the kind that are intended for duty use or carry - drop-safe.* Whether it is stupid or careless of someone to drop a gun is sort of beside the point. It's inevitable that it will happen, and happen with frequency for a mass-produced and popular gun.

People who are scared of the general public being allowed to carry are always raising the specter of dropped guns "going off" in classrooms or restaurants or movie theaters. Most of us who are "gun people" point out that modern firearms are designed not to discharge if dropped.

Sig knows all of this. It appears that they messed up and simply failed to account for the possibility of a muzzle-up drop causing the trigger to "pull itself." Given the danger to everyone - not just the dropping party - of muzzle-up AD/ND's, this is a problem.

Sig apparently has a fix underway. We don't yet know whether they will pay for it or ask the customer to pay, but I strongly suspect it will be the former. Many manufacturers have released products that have a safety issue. The good ones deal with it and fix the problem.

*Even many guns, such as FPB-less 1911, that can discharge if dropped muzzle down have safety devices (a grip safety in the 1911, for instance) that will prevent muzzle-up discharges. A muzzle-up discharge is generally MUCH more dangerous than a muzzle down discharge. I bet everyone here can figure out why.
 
I have to admit that, as much as I love the "My trigger finger is my safety!" mentality just as every Red Blooded American does, guns get dropped, especially handguns. Anything that gets carried and used every single day, and/or carried and used vigorously in active, fast paced scenarios like training or competition, gets banged around, roughly handled, and even dropped.

You can't fix stupid, true, but that's just Ron White being his usual smarmy, superior, self-righteous, jackass self. (I love that guy!) You also can't fix "human," happenstance, random dumb luck, and the whims of fortune when you're rolling the dice on what happens when you do something over and over and over every day through the changing circumstances of the real world.

I've watched master class shooters drop guns (and do other more egregious stuff) when skills, habits, and random reality collided unexpectedly.

We practice layers of safety (like...why do we have FOUR rules when any one of them should keep us out of danger?). Why would we not take advantage of a mechanical backup to give us a little cushion for when things don't go just the way we'd expected?

Not to say the P320 is a bad design. I don't know. But I do know that I'd like to have the benefit of another layer of safety when I can get it. I'm not perfect, and nether are my daily circumstances.
 
A DA action is one of several viable ways to prevent a trigger-pulls-itself kind of discharge. Heavier pull weights, lighter actual triggers, grip safeties, manual safeties (for drops from holsters, not during firing) all can reduce the risk of the inertia of the trigger itself pressing it to the rear when the rest of the gun is suddenly stopped by a hard floor. There are many feasible solutions to this problem. It appears that Sig needs to pick one or more and get them implemented.

For instance, there is some indication that the P320 X5's, which have a straight trigger containing less material (and which therefore have less inertia and less tendency to "pull itself"), are less prone (or perhaps not susceptible at all) to this issue. This is not an insoluble issue, which is both good and bad news for Sig. It's bad that they didn't solve a problem that has been solved by their own designs and by virtually every other major handgun manufacturer. It's good that fixing it won't exactly require a moonshot. Just some money and PR hit (the latter of which has already mostly occurred).
 
It's operator negligence, just the same as driving off the road and hitting a tree.
Click to expand...

Funny; brings me to the Liberty Mutual commercial that bugs me the most. A woman tells the viewer "You do all this research on a new car, reviews, spreadsheets, etc, and finally bring it home. Then one day, you smash it into a tree. Your insurance company raises your rates. Maybe you should have done a little research on them."

I always wanna say "No, maybe you should have done a little research on, uh, HOW TO DRIVE A CAR!"

But, as pointed out in following posts, not every handgun-drop is due to "lack of research on handgun handling." Sometimes, stuff just does happen fter all the right (or wrong?) factors line up..
 
If people started to handle guns less the problem would go away. Mine is always holstered unless I change holsters or go to the range.
 
paulsj said:
If people started to handle guns less the problem would go away.
Click to expand...

Unless it gets dropped during holstering. Or dropped when a paddle holster falls off a belt. Or dropped at the range.

Guns get dropped. We should all endeavor never to drop them.

But most modern pistols have been resistant to the particularly-dangerous muzzle-up drop-discharge for many decades. Precisely because manufacturers and purchasing agencies know full well that gun drops will occur.

We should all endeavor not to crash cars. But all cars come with seat belts and airbags.
 
Tirod said:
As the ongoing hysteria of the "issue" with the P320 is debated over the internet, lets not forget that one significant thing needs to happen to get the gun to discharge: you, the operator of that mechanism, have to fumble it, badly, and make it happen.

It's being ignored in all the debate: what we have here is a major safety issue that is gun owner induced. For all those who choose to put aside their P320's because they no longer trust it, I support your decision. In fact, it's not going far enough. Lock up ALL your guns, because if you are worried about dropping a P320, then the real issue and what is being admitted is that you will drop guns at all.

So, put down the gun safe key, back away from the cabinet, and leave the room. That way nobody will get hurt.

It's been debated for a long time the 1911 will fire if dropped on the hammer. And it seems to be a recurring problem that Glock owners will shoot themselves in the leg by the misfortunate insertion of their trigger finger inside the guard, especially when holstering. Given the larger issues at hand, I'm not worried about SIG's. I worry about gun owners, who have demonstrated an enormous capability to goof up any safety device and shoot themselves or others around them.

Negligent discharges are the bane of gun ownership, what should we expect if we mishandle a gun? It can and will go off, is what you should be thinking, and it should be handled with that in mind. Not "it's safe and can't go off." That is a lie - demonstrated over and over, regardless of gun type or hype - they are NOT safe and can go off.

Carry guns are constantly discussed on forums and their reliability is often the topic, if we are so focused on making sure they will shoot when we use them, then be assured, if you mishandle it and it can go off, it's entirely due to your efforts to have one that will. If you want a gun that can't possibly discharge, ever, no matter how you abuse it, then don't expect it to fire reliably when you need it to. There is a range of options in between those two extremes - think about how far you need to go one way or the other.

But no matter what, if you make an error in the first place, then own it. Dropping the gun at all is the real fault. It's operator negligence, just the same as driving off the road and hitting a tree.
Click to expand...
First of all, they advertise it as drop safe, its not. So they lied. They marketed it to Police as drop safe creating certain expectations that were stated when they were bought. Then when evidence showed it was not drop safe and a cop got shot, they lied again. When Dallas PD had concerns they lied again. It took Youtube of all things to force a change.

You know what this post sounds like? If a car manufacturer made defective seat belts and people were hurt, saying, "They should not have crashed the car in the first place." Guns are going to hit the ground. Guns for serious self defense or police use in particular are going to hit the ground because square range rules don't happen on the street when people are fighting for their lives and you own every shot fired.

There is no reason at all that any hand gun produced after 1980 should not be drop safe. Its 40 year old technology. Sig wanted to out do Glock, they boasted about it and they screwed it up. Then they lied repeatedly about it. They own it, just as if your gun was knocked out of your hand and it hit the ground and shot a bystander.
 
Tirod said:
As the ongoing hysteria of the "issue" with the P320 is debated over the internet, lets not forget that one significant thing needs to happen to get the gun to discharge: you, the operator of that mechanism, have to fumble it, badly, and make it happen.

It's being ignored in all the debate: what we have here is a major safety issue that is gun owner induced. For all those who choose to put aside their P320's because they no longer trust it, I support your decision. In fact, it's not going far enough. Lock up ALL your guns, because if you are worried about dropping a P320, then the real issue and what is being admitted is that you will drop guns at all.

So, put down the gun safe key, back away from the cabinet, and leave the room. That way nobody will get hurt.

It's been debated for a long time the 1911 will fire if dropped on the hammer. And it seems to be a recurring problem that Glock owners will shoot themselves in the leg by the misfortunate insertion of their trigger finger inside the guard, especially when holstering. Given the larger issues at hand, I'm not worried about SIG's. I worry about gun owners, who have demonstrated an enormous capability to goof up any safety device and shoot themselves or others around them.

Negligent discharges are the bane of gun ownership, what should we expect if we mishandle a gun? It can and will go off, is what you should be thinking, and it should be handled with that in mind. Not "it's safe and can't go off." That is a lie - demonstrated over and over, regardless of gun type or hype - they are NOT safe and can go off.

Carry guns are constantly discussed on forums and their reliability is often the topic, if we are so focused on making sure they will shoot when we use them, then be assured, if you mishandle it and it can go off, it's entirely due to your efforts to have one that will. If you want a gun that can't possibly discharge, ever, no matter how you abuse it, then don't expect it to fire reliably when you need it to. There is a range of options in between those two extremes - think about how far you need to go one way or the other.

But no matter what, if you make an error in the first place, then own it. Dropping the gun at all is the real fault. It's operator negligence, just the same as driving off the road and hitting a tree.
Click to expand...

I'm in disagreement with most of what you said. The gun is in no way drop safe. Sig tried to make a striker fire without redesigning the trigger, instead they pulled over the trigger from their hammer fire models. It was sloppy, and will kill. Already a 7 million dollar lawsuit from one Officer's injury: http://www.guns.com/2017/08/09/sig-sauer-hit-with-personal-injury-lawsuit-over-p320/

Guns drop, especially when you use them all the time and have to take them from one environment to another. These were marketed and developed for the military and law enforcement, where dropping can happen more often. Yes this is operator error, however, the gun also did not do it's job. Striker fired weapons without an engaged thumb safety must also have a trigger that contains a safety or a grip safety to ensure this won't happen.

SIG's handling of this also sucks IMO. They are issuing a "voluntary" recall, where it should and will most likely in the future by mandatory. Or they could do what Remington did, and deny deny deny for 40 years.
 
JohnBiltz said:
First of all, they advertise it as drop safe, its not. So they lied. They marketed it to Police as drop safe creating certain expectations that were stated when they were bought. Then when evidence showed it was not drop safe and a cop got shot, they lied again. When Dallas PD had concerns they lied again. It took Youtube of all things to force a change.

You know what this post sounds like? If a car manufacturer made defective seat belts and people were hurt, saying, "They should not have crashed the car in the first place." Guns are going to hit the ground. Guns for serious self defense or police use in particular are going to hit the ground because square range rules don't happen on the street when people are fighting for their lives and you own every shot fired.

There is no reason at all that any hand gun produced after 1980 should not be drop safe. Its 40 year old technology. Sig wanted to out do Glock, they boasted about it and they screwed it up. Then they lied repeatedly about it. They own it, just as if your gun was knocked out of your hand and it hit the ground and shot a bystander.
Click to expand...

Dude we must have been typing at the same time, you took the words from my mouth!
 
Things happen. In defensive use, a pistol can get knocked out of your hand. A person can trip and fall running in dim light. I think that in this day and age most people have an expectation that modern pistols are largely drop safe, especially when the manufacturer in their advertising hype guarantees it is.
 
If they had just said, "We never drop tested it that way, not industry standard, but now that we know about it we will fix it immediately" it's quite possible some of this wouldn't have come to pass. No matter what happens now, SIG just took a 155mm egg to the face, and it will take a little time to get past it, not to mention expensive.
I finally handled one a week or so ago, felt great with the Small frame, and the trigger was excellent.
 
Tirod said:
As the ongoing hysteria of the "issue" with the P320 is debated over the internet, ................... Dropping the gun at all is the real fault. It's operator negligence, just the same as driving off the road and hitting a tree.
Click to expand...
Uh, couldn't you have just posted "I don't care if SIG made a defective gun, I still love it!!!!"
Good grief.
 
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a modern firearm can withstand a 4' drop onto it's back side.

The angle needed to get the gun to fire wasn't some crazy +/-2 degree to get it to fail sort of thing. The gun was dropped on the tail end. That's not THE most common way a gun tends to fall, but it is probably the most dangerous angle for a gun to unintentionally discharge.

I'm a 320 fan. I'm not trading my gun off. I'll see what SIG does. However, the rhetoric of management does not strike me as on the level even if they do fix the issue.

I picked up a Ruger American Pistol today on a whim. It's not as comfortable in hand as the SIG, but it works and didn't break the bank.

I don't think anyone being cautious about the 320 should shroud themselves on bubble wrap and put safety corks on their forks. It's a legitimate concern that I don't want my gun going off and potentially killing someone if I happen to have a human moment and drop my firearm.
 
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I bought my gf a P320 Carry for Christmas and bought a P320 TACOPS for myself a couple of months ago. We REALLY like our P320s and if/when SIG wants it back I have no problem with that. I'd buy another without any concerns at all. I've NEVER dropped a handgun despite years of shooting and carrying them. They're designed to be held in the hand so that comes kind of easy. They're not freaking bananas ... and yes, I've dropped a peeled banana or two!
I was one of the first to buy an XDs .45 that had to go back for a trigger issue (sold it soon after) and I just sent back (and received) a Daniel Defense AR that had to go back for a trigger issue. Car companies have recalls all the time, some related to safety. I don't see this as a big deal.
 
More than just fingers can get caught in the trigger of a glock while holstering. Safety devices exist as a backup for the situations we can't control as well.

As for always keeping it in a holster, what about these dumb *curse word* state laws about not carry concealed on school grounds? Every time I have to go pick up my kids the gun legally must be stowed in my car until I get back to it. Situations can't always be controlled.
 
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