Does free-floating REALLY net better accuracy?

Free-floating isn't entirely about pressure on the foreend flexing the barrel. It's also about letting the barrel flex as it will, on its own, unaffected by anything else.
The furniture should be sturdy enough not to flex considerably under pressure that comes from general use. But freefloating will still help because then the only thing that affects the barrel is the barrel. Not flex from the grip, temperature differential between it and everything else, or settling slightly different against furniture after each shot.

BullHeadedGideon said:

I don't understand this - if you have a flip-up front sight on a free-floated barrel, whenever you put pressure on the Handguards, say from a foward grip or bipod or something, the handguard will rise, along with the flip-up front sight. So wouldn't that change the point of impact???

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The purpose of free floating a barrel is to prevent pressure applied to the forestock/handguard from applying any pressure to the barrel.

Regards,
hps

BullHeadedGideon said:

I don't understand this - if you have a flip-up front sight on a free-floated barrel, whenever you put pressure on the Handguards, say from a foward grip or bipod or something, the handguard will rise, along with the flip-up front sight. So wouldn't that change the point of impact???

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So, that's actually kinda a confusing question.

A free floated handguard/barrel prevents the pressure on the handguard from disturbing the barrel, as stated above. this leads to improved mechanical accuracy of the system.

You could in theory apply enough force to the handguard to noticeably move the poi, due to a change in front sight position relative to the barrel, but you'd probably have to try pretty hard.
I don't think ...well....maybe a few of us are good enough shots to notice a poi change based on pressure applied to a decent handguard.

JohnKSa said:

Free-floating also prevents the barrel from "bouncing" against the stock during the vibration experienced during firing. This bouncing behavior can be inconsistent and can have a negative effect on accuracy.

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I believe "consistency" is the keyword. Free-floating allows the barrel to vibrate consistently, but the result may or may not be the best accuracy. I believe that damping the barrel's vibration can sometimes result in better accuracy, but the damping must be done consistently. The problem with some stocks that are not bedded and some barrels that are not free-floated is that the pressure on the barrel can be inconsistent in location and in force. Bedding is an effort to eliminate more or less random pressure points. Free-floating supposes that no pressure points will result in the best accuracy, but sometimes barrels vibrate excessively or inconsistently and damping them with a controlled forward pressure point can improve things.

BullHeadedGideon said:

I'm sorry, I meant "wouldn't that change point of aim," not point of impact.

But, ok, I get it. I was just always under the impression that a big reason of free floating barrels was to help with accuracy in regards to pressure being put on the handguards. Which made me think, "well... My M-lok handguard seems to move a little bit quite easily, so isn't that changing where I've got my front sight aimed at...?"

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If the freefloat hand guard flexes and the front sight is attached to the handguard, it has to affect point of aim. The barrel won’t move, while the sight does. If that doesn’t affect point of aim......

BullHeadedGideon said:

Right - which would result in poor accuracy due to your point of aim shifting, right?

Hope I'm not coming across like I'm arguing - *genuine question.*

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You are mostly correct. To be technical, the accuracy doesn’t change. The bullet will always go where the BARREL is pointed. The sight just won’t point to the same location as the barrel. So, barring that technicality, you are correct.

I agree with others, technically you are correct. And to that technically, a very narrow .00004'' narrow...

The idea of shoveing a front handle whether lifting,pulling left or right etc. really doesn't apply, unless propping the barrel against something hard to make it stationary, and then applying the torque force. Which no practical application would call for.

Assuming an aluminum ff handguard, the amount of torque required to actually shift the sight picture p.o.a. (point of aim) sufficiently to change p.o.i. (p.o. impact), you would really be torqueing the sling. Or in your example shoving the bipod. Using the sling as an example, I personally do not think that type off pressure can be applied to wherever the sling touches your body i.e. upper support arm, without causing sufficient discomfort to in itself effect p.o.a. / p.o.i. after even a few shots. Which then brings out an undergarment shirt, and a shooting coat...which if deployed would directly mean better than standard BUS sights...and...and...

I know of only ONCE when an experienced comp shooter bent the front sling attachment, slinging up super tight into the seated position.


All that said I do not think the theory math here^^ for a BASIC flip up BUS sight would ever translate into actual target impact in practical shooting. Drinking a large stout coffee before the session, lack of sleep, etc. would bring a more questionable result 500 times faster, IMHO.

A lot of rifles have the front sight directly mounted to the barrel, an ar with non fixed sights would be the exception and may benefit just slightly less from free floating. Everything else it simply allows the barrel to resonate at a consistant frequency.

I am certain the energy input of the cartridge makes a huge difference. The barrel is vibrating dynamically and it responds to whatever masses are on it, and to what ever is touching it.






this rifle was stocked in best 1950's manner: the barrel was completely in contact with the fore end. Joe, the guy from who I bought the thing, had bedded the barrel such that a dollar would not slide between the barrel and fore end.





I free floated the barrel, completely removed contact with the fore end, and got roundish groups



This is a classic British Smallbore Prone rifle. And it is based on a classic action, the Martini Henry. Those old black powder rifles, the fore ends were in complete contact with the barrel, and competitors of the era shot some great scores with their smoke poles. When it came to making a 22lr, the Brits copied many things from the centerfire rifles, one of which was a fore end in contact with the barrel.






That big screw on the right holds the fore end to the barrel



Even though the sling pulls on the forend, and I change the mass by sticking a scope on the barrel, I do not notice any diminished accuracy with a scope.







I prefer Redfield 3200's, and took it to a match in Sept and shot this at 100 yards. These are the best targets. It was hot and that really affects my pulse. When it is 88 F in the shade, only the crazies are out shooting in quilted coats and sweat shirts!



So, I believe that given a stiff enough structure, such as the Martini action, and a low enough cartridge energy input, that masses on the barrel and the pressure of the cartridge, don't make a big difference on point of impact. But go the other way, light barrels, high pressure, and contact points, and the dynamics are irregular.

Savage 12 BVSS .223

Before relieving the barrel channel on the left. After relieving on the right.



It makes a difference

Shifting harmonics by pressing against a barrel will move a POI far more than will slightly moving the sight with the same pressure.

@BigBore44 is incorrect in saying “bullets go where the barrel is pointed.” Barrel harmonics play an absolutely dominating role in POI. Even in a free floated rifle, where the optic is a good reference of “where the barrel is pointing,” changing harmonics can change both vertical and horizontal aspects of the POI. Simply changing brakes can shift POI a couple MOA, without changing “where the barrel is pointing.”

Consider the specifications of open sights - a front sight blade/post/bead will be between 1/16” to 1/8” wide. An A2 post is .070”. Held at 21” (standard AR carbine A2 front sight from my eye), that’s 12moa at 100 yards. Given the aperture rear arrangement, floating the front sight within the rear sight might be another ~4moa. Flexing a handguard is hard - a good handguard, that is, and flexing a handguard just under the load of the rifle doesn’t add up. An over-zealous sling pressure can pull a handguard way out of whack, but typical pressure from support won’t push the sight around.

However, adding sufficient pressure to influence barrel harmonics is very easy. Hell, changing position of a barrel tuner will shift the harmonics enough to shift POI, as will changing brakes, or hanging a chronograph from the muzzle.

Slamfire said:

I am certain the energy input of the cartridge makes a huge difference. The barrel is vibrating dynamically and it responds to whatever masses are on it, and to what ever is touching


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this rifle was stocked in best 1950's manner: the barrel was completely in contact with the fore end. Joe, the guy from who I bought the thing, had bedded the barrel such that a dollar would not slide between the barrel and fore end.

View attachment 865942

View attachment 865943

I free floated the barrel, completely removed contact with the fore end, and got roundish groups

View attachment 865944

This is a classic British Smallbore Prone rifle. And it is based on a classic action, the Martini Henry. Those old black powder rifles, the fore ends were in complete contact with the barrel, and competitors of the era shot some great scores with their smoke poles. When it came to making a 22lr, the Brits copied many things from the centerfire rifles, one of which was a fore end in contact with the barrel.


View attachment 865945

View attachment 865946

That big screw on the right holds the fore end to the barrel

View attachment 865947

Even though the sling pulls on the forend, and I change the mass by sticking a scope on the barrel, I do not notice any diminished accuracy with a scope.

View attachment 865948

View attachment 865949

View attachment 865950

I prefer Redfield 3200's, and took it to a match in Sept and shot this at 100 yards. These are the best targets. It was hot and that really affects my pulse. When it is 88 F in the shade, only the crazies are out shooting in quilted coats and sweat shirts!

View attachment 865951

So, I believe that given a stiff enough structure, such as the Martini action, and a low enough cartridge energy input, that masses on the barrel and the pressure of the cartridge, don't make a big difference on point of impact. But go the other way, light barrels, high pressure, and contact points, and the dynamics are irregular.

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Nice martini.

Varminterror said:

adding sufficient pressure to influence barrel harmonics is very easy. Hell, changing position of a barrel tuner will shift the harmonics enough to shift POI, as will changing brakes, or hanging a chronograph from the muzzle.

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To your point, here’s my foray into the world of barrel tuners

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/barrel-tuners.854700/

I have free floated every rifle that I have that can be free floated. Most showed some improvement, some showed a lot of improvement and a few, very few, showed no change. But I never had one that was hurt because of free floating. There have been a few that I didn't float because of odd barrel contours or steps. The Browning Safari Grade comes to mind.

Like the other have said, free floating a barrel takes stock pressure and weather conditions out of the equation.

Nature Boy said:

Savage 12 BVSS .223

Before relieving the barrel channel on the left. After relieving on the right.

View attachment 865965

It makes a difference

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Lovely groups!

BullHeadedGideon said:

I don't understand this - if you have a flip-up front sight on a free-floated barrel, whenever you put pressure on the Handguards, say from a foward grip or bipod or something, the handguard will rise, along with the flip-up front sight. So wouldn't that change the point of impact???

Click to expand...

Lots of great answers in this thread already. I'd add this: If you're trying to achieve great long range accuracy, a flip-up front sight, regardless of how/where mounted, probably isn't in the recipe.

Most (not all, but most) people interested in real accuracy these days are mounting optics. And they're putting them on receivers/uppers. Flip-up sights are as a backup for when the optic gets smashed.

Free-floating is not always a cure-all for accuracy.

Pull the fore end off an Enfield No. 4 (the ultimate free-float) and compare the groups to the same rifle with a correctly set-up fore end. Big difference.