docbrown
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But it's a Ruger. All Rugers can handle over max loads, right?
Exactly! Ruger magically can ignore the laws of physics and metalurgy!
Just because you see it on the internet doesn't make it a good idea.
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Exactly! Ruger magically can ignore the laws of physics and metalurgy!
illinoisburt
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Never be surprised by inherent stupidity of some people, especially online. As an example one of the long range shooting websites I peruse on occasion has 'tutorials' about maximizing case volume and often suggests loads 5 or more grains over max for many rifles while giving helpful hints for longer bolt handles to help with difficult to open actions.
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AJC1
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I will say that load manuals aren't rules but published notes just like the scientific community. Staying inside published loads is no guarantee, nor is exceeding published loads. One only has to ask is what I'm doing worth the additional risk. For me that's always no. Extraction is one of my primary indicators, and it's just as reliable as reading primers or more so. I've started to have sticky extraction and beautiful primers and I was done. You may only get one of several indicators and you need to heed them all.
EricBu
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Man...I shoot with some of those guys, lol. They think the max charge in the book for 338 LM is a good start load, and you often hear them say things like "I can only use Lapua brass if I want to get more than 2 loads out of a piece of brass". Or, my personal favorite, "the primers won't fall out if you add a little crazy glue".
The Glockodile
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Shooter sez: "Bolt lifts really easily on my rifle."
Rifle sez: These here real tacticle military deal Bolts?
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ballman6711
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I'll say that I have a friend that reloads, and his opinion is load it at max. "Go big or go home".
"They wouldn't put it in the book if it wasn't safe".
Well, I've talked to him and tried to get him to use starting loads and work up, using arguments from being easier on the gun to using less powder. He usually doesn't listen. I usually don't shoot his reloads.
chris
"They wouldn't put it in the book if it wasn't safe".
Well, I've talked to him and tried to get him to use starting loads and work up, using arguments from being easier on the gun to using less powder. He usually doesn't listen. I usually don't shoot his reloads.
chris
N555
Member
Mistakes I see, goes straight to the max charge, not only uses a different case uses mix head stamps, didn't attempt to determine if buffalo bore used std or magnum primers, was holding the gun in his hand....
I load 44mag pretty hot, compressed load of H110 under a 180gr bullet with a non magnum primer win brass. The old Walmart winchester 44mag 240gr in the white box made more over pressure signs than my "hot ammo". If I remember correctly my extreme spread was like 40 or 50fps, not like a hundred like this guy was getting.
I load 44mag pretty hot, compressed load of H110 under a 180gr bullet with a non magnum primer win brass. The old Walmart winchester 44mag 240gr in the white box made more over pressure signs than my "hot ammo". If I remember correctly my extreme spread was like 40 or 50fps, not like a hundred like this guy was getting.
Fatigue will burst a cylinder. This thread is about a blown Super Blackhawk cylinder:
Fatique Life of 4140 steel
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible
Just a few thoughts on this. For Background I am a mechanical engineer with a heavy background in failure and fatigue.
I wonder if I could request a high quality photo of the fracture zone of the cylinder? I am specifically interested in the grain structure of the bolt notches.
I put fort the following.
1) Firearms in general (the type we plebeians can get our mits one) are not designed for infinite fatigue life.
2) The Factors of safety used in firearms design are in line with low end of fatigue requirements (usually less than 10,000 cycles).
3) One of the funny things about fatigue is that each time you push the material past its original design point, you lower its expected life.
4) I am looking at this as an older gun with an unknown number of rounds through it. but based on its age a substantial round count seems likely.
5) When these firearms are designed it is generally preferable for something else to go before the cylinder lets go and takes the top strap. Generally this takes the form of the gun wearing loose or the barrel wearing out. But they are designed to handle X rounds at standard pressures.
6) I see alot of folks calculate the strengths of Rugers, but these calculations are only ever performing an evaluation on a straight static pressure basis. This is wrong when trying to determine if a load is safe.
I attached a couple of marked up figures for your perusal
Recently at the Bullseye Pistol match I got to talk to a former team USAF Bullseye shooter. This was between target changes and scoring, had just a bit of time to yak. USAF is retired and is the Range Master at his range. A young man was having trouble getting his recent acquisition, a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 Magnum zero'd. He asked USAF retired to shoot the pistol to verify the sights. USAF retired asked the specifics of the load, and upon hearing the powder was 2400, was not worried about a double charge. USAF retired fired one round, and it was perfectly centered on the target, cocked the hammer and fired another. That is when the cylinder burst and the top strap blew. USAF was not injured, thank God, and he said he examined the collectable metal shards and said he saw signs of metal fatigue. I did not have time to determine if he was a trained USAF technician, but, metal fatigue does have distinct wear patterns.
It is very likely that the Super Blackhawk had been fed a steady diet of real hot loads before it was sold to the young man. And I can tell you, I have encountered shooters who brag about how many grains they are above max!
Never say never!
Fatique Life of 4140 steel
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible
Just a few thoughts on this. For Background I am a mechanical engineer with a heavy background in failure and fatigue.
I wonder if I could request a high quality photo of the fracture zone of the cylinder? I am specifically interested in the grain structure of the bolt notches.
I put fort the following.
1) Firearms in general (the type we plebeians can get our mits one) are not designed for infinite fatigue life.
2) The Factors of safety used in firearms design are in line with low end of fatigue requirements (usually less than 10,000 cycles).
3) One of the funny things about fatigue is that each time you push the material past its original design point, you lower its expected life.
4) I am looking at this as an older gun with an unknown number of rounds through it. but based on its age a substantial round count seems likely.
5) When these firearms are designed it is generally preferable for something else to go before the cylinder lets go and takes the top strap. Generally this takes the form of the gun wearing loose or the barrel wearing out. But they are designed to handle X rounds at standard pressures.
6) I see alot of folks calculate the strengths of Rugers, but these calculations are only ever performing an evaluation on a straight static pressure basis. This is wrong when trying to determine if a load is safe.
I attached a couple of marked up figures for your perusal
Recently at the Bullseye Pistol match I got to talk to a former team USAF Bullseye shooter. This was between target changes and scoring, had just a bit of time to yak. USAF is retired and is the Range Master at his range. A young man was having trouble getting his recent acquisition, a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 Magnum zero'd. He asked USAF retired to shoot the pistol to verify the sights. USAF retired asked the specifics of the load, and upon hearing the powder was 2400, was not worried about a double charge. USAF retired fired one round, and it was perfectly centered on the target, cocked the hammer and fired another. That is when the cylinder burst and the top strap blew. USAF was not injured, thank God, and he said he examined the collectable metal shards and said he saw signs of metal fatigue. I did not have time to determine if he was a trained USAF technician, but, metal fatigue does have distinct wear patterns.
It is very likely that the Super Blackhawk had been fed a steady diet of real hot loads before it was sold to the young man. And I can tell you, I have encountered shooters who brag about how many grains they are above max!
Never say never!
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AJC1
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I don't believe many rapid disassembles happen with near max charges. The double charge of a fast powder I bet is a game leader. Bad practices will get you eventually though.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Would you believe "all of the above"? I agree with @Slamfire that most spontaneous disassemblies are the result of metal fatigue. Remember, the secret of steel is not that it's strong, but that it's elastic. It can change shape with a strain curve and return to its original shape when the strain is relieved. But, just like any other elastic material, it can only change shape so many times before the strain becomes too much. And, on top of that, the greater the strain, the more the steel has to change shape, the more fatigue the metal experiences. Eventually, the fatigue wins.
My first post here I was asking about 38-44 type loads (I had no knowledge of 38-44 at the time) in order to circumvent my clubs ban on "magnum" calibers. I wanted more practice time with my 686-2, with recoil levels close enough to .357 mag to make the practice worthwhile, but I had to use .38 special brass.
My brother, the reloader in the family, has a S&W outdoorsman and offered to load something up for me. Sent me two different loads. I shot 6 of each load and decided they were too hot for my gun (they are fine in his). A single action revolver might have revealed it was only one cylinder with sticky extraction but we all have to decide where to draw the line.
Based on that video I'm not going to buy any Buffalo Bore ammo!
My brother, the reloader in the family, has a S&W outdoorsman and offered to load something up for me. Sent me two different loads. I shot 6 of each load and decided they were too hot for my gun (they are fine in his). A single action revolver might have revealed it was only one cylinder with sticky extraction but we all have to decide where to draw the line.
Based on that video I'm not going to buy any Buffalo Bore ammo!
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AJC1
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The scary part is I know of no outward way of seeing this progressive problem. I wander if you had the gun from new if you could measure it with pin gages. Makes buying used even more concerning.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I bought some BB .45-70 years ago for my Ruger No.1. They were/are "dangerous game" level loads and WAY too much for the Ruger - not because of action strength but because such a light rifle with such a heavy reoiling load is more difficult to shoot accurately. The barrel will begin to rise before the bullet has left the muzzle. I still have most of that box of ammo and probably will for some time. It's not accurate in my Marlin 95 and I no longer have the Ruger. And, no, I won't be buying more BB ammo, either.
desmobob
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...and all the video's comments heap praise on the guy. Good Lord...
The Glockodile
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AJC1
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I'm not a fan of recoil, and I was doing the opposite. I was looking at trapdoor loads and calculating recoil. My 308 is near 20 and that's fine. A near minimum charge of 4198 is my game plan when I run out of trail boss. Even the lever loads near the top are above 40lbs and that's a hard pass for me.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I can't honestly say I have many guns I bought new. I have inspected every used gun I bought thoroughly and am satisfied they were none of them abused. As for other folks reloads, I do trust and shoot my father-in-law's handloads and I do trust his work. He has also shot my loads as have quite a few other people I know well from time to time. I do agree this kind of meshugana is nuts and more than a little scary but so is the kind of driving I see every morning and evening on our daily commute. I see dozens of people every morning driving bashed up cars, eating and texting while driving, paying zero attention to the road, and I see at least a dozen wrecks every week on that commute. Sometimes it makes me wonder if mass insanity with mass suicidal tendencies haven't seized hold of our nation.Honestly, this why I buy mostly new guns and reload myself; then I know what is going on. I never shoot anyone else’s reloads, ever. This kind of stuff is frightening.
wcwhitey
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With a few exceptions I find myself happily shooting loads that are in the middle of published data. Just enough pressure to get proper burn of a particular powder. Unique is a perfect example, for me it’s accuracy and efficiency point lies somewhere in the 12 to 15 thousand psi range. So if I am shooting .44 Special for instance that gets me 800 fps with a 245 Grain bullet that is super accurate and clean due to complete powder burn I am a happy camper. I know I can safely load to higher for my Magnums or Blackhawk but there is nothing that that round wont do that a round 50 fps faster will except put my Bulldog at risk. So I keep the pressures at SAMMI spec. If I need bigger or faster I load the same bullet at 1100 and it’s still mild in a Magnum Case. That is why I shake my head in the first place. If you need a round that shoots a 180 grain bullet at those velocities from a 4” barrel a .357 is a poor choice. Grab a .44, 10MM or .41 Magnum and you can do it easily all day every day. Why make something it’s not. Round peg in round holes makes life sooo much easier.
The 460 XVR has an 8-3/8" barrel and while the recoil definitely gets your attention, it is quite manageable. I would not want to shoot a 4" barreled version. Even so, I'm only good for a cylinder or two of full power loads before I've had enough.
Blue68f100
Member
Well said.
I did fracture mechanics on the Alaska Pipeline back in the late 70's. When a sample was prepared right you could not see the crack with out a microscope if the sample was prepared correctly. I was the one doing the pre-cracking and testing of the samples. This was before there was any std to reference too. My boss sent me down to a lab in Houston to checkout his fracture mechanics procedure, toward the end of our R&D project. He pulled the samples out and I could see the crack in everyone and told him all those samples have already failed before we even tested. I spent the next 4 hr helping to under stand what he did wrong and right. He did not have the $120k interface that I had setup to monitor the progress of the pre-stress crack. I also told him it took us 6 mo of gathering data in order to program the thing. I had over 1/4 mil of test equipment at 1977 pricing, not something a independent lab is going to purchase. Only big companies with deep pockets.
Metal fatigue is real thing that most don't under stand. I guess mainly reason why is there is hardly no indication of what is going on that you can see till it's about to fail. And only then if you know where to look and what to look for.
Griffen
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Forty years as a mechanical engineer is both a curse and a blessing. Generally, it is difficult to have the technical part of a conversation about this because you receive a blank stare in return and I don’t want to talk over other’s head. That’s why this type of thread is frightening to me; it exposes the folly of some folks that have no knowledge of strength of materials and neither have nor seek any apparent boundaries. The reload manuals are published for a reason: safety. I know you guys know this as it is apparent in the thread. I am amazed at the things some do to push boundaries. I just don’t want to be next to them at a range.
I enjoy the sport of shooting and enjoy the hobby of reloading, as well as, finding that elusive “perfect” load for a particular firearm, but I don’t want to become involved in someone else’s mad scientist laboratory.
GeoDudeFlorida
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When I was working on the F15 STOL project in the 80's the engineering team at Rocketdyne, White Sands, NM, flew our team and the Northrop engineering people out to conduct tests on machining stresses-strains of the Ti alloy we were using. It was very cool stuff and I understood about half of what they were doing. Bottom line: there were some catastrophic failures the materials models didn't indicate would happen. They tried changing alloys and assembly processes, then looked at the manufacturing processes. Final result was a change in the part to eliminate a pair of stressors in the angular cuts of a part that connected the thrust cone to the hydraulic push-rod. It's kind of scary to think about how just a single angled cut in an inside corner of a single part that isn't even carrying much of a load can cause the catastrophic failure of an engine and down an aircraft.
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AJC1
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I'd like a job in destructive testing, break stuff all day and write reports on how and why it broke. Lots of fulfilling experience. To bad the ratio of report time to breaking stuff isn't higher.
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