How to Achieve Velocities Similar to Underwood 10mm

[slowr1der]

I'm hoping to get into 10mm and use it for deer hunting. I keep reading how Underwood 10mm is the bee's knees. The 10mm 150 grain Extreme Hunter seems like a great load, but at $48 per box of 20, I'm having trouble justifying it. It claims to have 1425fps, which is very impressive. The bullet is obviously just a Leigh Defense bullet, which is easy to get on it's own. Obviously there is nothing special about the brass either. The special part about this round seems to be their claimed velocity. Almost none of the reloading manuals have anything close to 1425fps out of a similar load. I found this thread on Glock Talk where someone broke the ammo down and believes it's just 11.3 grains of Power Pistol powder.

10mm Xtreme Hunter 150gr Bullet Pulldown and Reloading

www.glocktalk.com

I suspect that would get you to that velocity, but it's way over the max load from most manuals. Leigh Defense lists 9.0 grains of PP as their max load. Nosler lists 9.9 grains. I can't remember what Hornady listed, but I looked in the manual and it was lower than 11.3. Does it seem likely that they'd just load this stuff that far over max? I'm well aware of working loads up over max in a specific gun, but it seems like there would be some liability of just selling ammo that far over max for anyone to shoot in anything without any work up. That's why I'm skeptical. Do you all think this is what's going on? Or do they have some special blend of powder not available to the public? Has anyone been able to get this kind of velocity on their own?

Even buying brand new brass, I can load this round with today's current prices for about half the cost per box of 20. That's making it seem very tempting, I'm just curious how to safely get the velocity up there. I've always gone for accuracy over velocity in the past, so I'm not normally trying to push things to the max velocity.

 

[ms6852]

To achieve similar velocities you need to determine the length of barrel they used and use a similar length barrel. Otherwise you lose about 25 fps to 50 fps per inch.

 

[ballman6711]

Do you all think this is what's going on? Or do they have some special blend of powder not available to the public?

I would think they have a special blend that is then pressure tested, either by them (if they have the equipment) or by someone else. It would be a very poor business decision, from a liability aspect, to make and sell known overpressure rounds, which could be fired in all types of guns. They couldn't possibly know what condition your gun is in, or how strong/weak the action or metal is. Just an educated guess on my part.

chris

 

[Ru4real]

Here is the XTP in a 10mm. I’m shooting the Barnes Tac-XP 155 HP, a little less of the same powder for 1400+ fps. Bluedot might be better. AA#9 is too slow, can only get 12.5 grains into case with Barnes, velocity suffers.

 

[n2omike]

Have you actually velocity tested the Underwood ammo in your gun? Chances are, it's not nearly as fast as you think it is.

 

[Kaldor]

Have you actually velocity tested the Underwood ammo in your gun? Chances are, it's not nearly as fast as you think it is.

Great point here. Trust but verify!

 

[slowr1der]

Have you actually velocity tested the Underwood ammo in your gun? Chances are, it's not nearly as fast as you think it is.

No, because I haven't been able to convince myself to pay $48 for a box of 20 yet.

I also don't have the gun yet, but it's been ordered so I'm trying to get everything else ready to go for when it gets here.

 

[slowr1der]

Here is the XTP in a 10mm. I’m shooting the Barnes Tac-XP 155 HP, a little less of the same powder for 1400+ fps. Bluedot might be better. AA#9 is too slow, can only get 12.5 grains into case with Barnes, velocity suffers.


View attachment 1178683

Interesting. I have a bunch of CFE Pistol powder already. I may have to give it a try. I guess my manuals are probably pre CFE Pistol as they didn't list it.

 

[AJC1]

No, because I haven't been able to convince myself to pay $48 for a box of 20 yet.

I also don't have the gun yet, but it's been ordered so I'm trying to get everything else ready to go for when it gets here.

Realistic evaluation of the cost. If this is a hunting only round, exactly how many do you plan to shoot? A box of nossler accubonds is double that in 308 and they are still selling. If you take 5 shots at game a year with purpose ammo it's not really expensive.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Realistic evaluation of the cost. If this is a hunting only round, exactly how many do you plan to shoot? A box of nossler accubonds is double that in 308 and they are still selling. If you take 5 shots at game a year with purpose ammo it's not really expensive.

Yup. That’s how old guys like me end up with older bullets. Average use of hunting ammo: 3 sighters to make sure they still hit where expected. 1 bang-flop if everything goes right, 2 bangs and a miserable chase if it doesn’t. 5 rounds per season, average and less if I don’t get the ideal shot.
I still have factory .30-30 hanging around from the 90’s Come to think of it, I need to empty out that cabinet and inventory all my factory ammo.

 

[n2omike]

Realistic evaluation of the cost. If this is a hunting only round, exactly how many do you plan to shoot? A box of nossler accubonds is double that in 308 and they are still selling. If you take 5 shots at game a year with purpose ammo it's not really expensive.

The intended use of the 10mm will determine where to go with powder. If a person has a stash of CFE Pistol, by all means start with that. Learn the pistol, get use to it, get it good and broken in, develop your muscle memory, etc. RMR has VERY affordable 10mm bullets to do this with. Free shipping as well. https://www.rmrbullets.com/product-category/bullets/pistol/40-10mm/

After getting the gun/shooter nice and broken in, then do a little more powder research if full effort loads are desired.

As per Accubonds (bonded... and also monolithic copper bullets) These were developed for Magnum cartridges, as the standard cup/core bullets that were fine up to around 2800 fps... were fragmenting at closer ranges at Magnum speeds. 30-06, 6.5 Creedmore, etc... no need for these expensive bullets for deer hunting in the East. However, upselling is easy to do if you only go through a box every 3-4 years. There is usually no detriment to using them. lol

 

[Rule3]

Boutique ammo and bullets! Advertising What is the magic?, Why is it needed? Heck a box of Hornady ammo is half the price and it is advertised at 1,410!

For hand-loading there a many bullets and powders that will do the same thing

 

[Lennyjoe]

I prefer 180’-220’s out of 10MM for hunting. I have several handloads with 165, 180 and 200 JHP for various 10MM pistols and 1 carbine. Longshot, AA-9, BE-86 and 800X (discontinued but I still have 4 lbs) are good powders as is Blue Dot.

 

[slowr1der]

Realistic evaluation of the cost. If this is a hunting only round, exactly how many do you plan to shoot? A box of nossler accubonds is double that in 308 and they are still selling. If you take 5 shots at game a year with purpose ammo it's not really expensive.

You're right. Which is why I originally planned to just buy some of the Underwood rounds. Before I looked it up, I figured I'd get 200 rounds. That would let me get zeroed, practice with it some, and have some left to hunt. Then I realized 200 rounds of it is $480. That's when I hit the pause button. I could probably buy a couple of boxes and get it zeroed and eliminate the practice, but it's a lot more attractive to reload it for half the cost and get to enjoy shooting it too.

 

[slowr1der]

Boutique ammo and bullets! Advertising What is the magic?, Why is it needed? Heck a box of Hornady ammo is half the price and it is advertised at 1,410!

For hand-loading there a many bullets and powders that will do the same thing

In not denying it's a boutique bullet. I'm not 100% set on having to use this bullet. However, I don't see many other good choices. Despite mostly using their bullets in the past, I have zero desire to spend any of my money with Hornady after the vaccine ordeal. In addition to that, I've used XTP's in other calibers and I've never been a huge fan.

Nosler makes a JHP, but both reading online and watching YouTube tests, it seems like the performance is pretty terrible.

There is the Speer Gold Dot, which I've always been a fan of. However, it seems to be unavailable everywhere. So I can't actually get it.

There is the Barnes, which is probably great, but it costs just as much as the Leigh Defense bullets.

There was an offering from Sierra, which I don't know anything about. I need to look into that.

So there just don't see to be a lot great choices out there. Everyone I know personally that's used the Underwood ammo with the Leigh Defense bullets has been a big fan, the YouTube tests of it are impressive, etc. That's what brought me to that bullet. If there is a better performing alternative at a cheaper price, I'm all ears. I just haven't found one that's actually available.

 

[slowr1der]

I prefer 180’-220’s out of 10MM for hunting. I have several handloads with 165, 180 and 200 JHP for various 10MM pistols and 1 carbine. Longshot, AA-9, BE-86 and 800X (discontinued but I still have 4 lbs) are good powders as is Blue Dot.

Which 180 grain bullet do you prefer? I originally had planned to go with a 180 grain as it seems like the most common weight. I'm not against it at all. I only started looking at these 150's after a friend recommended them, then I saw some tests on YouTube.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm hoping to get into 10mm and use it for deer hunting ... Underwood 10mm ... 150 grain Extreme Hunter ... claims to have 1425fps ... on Glock Talk where someone broke the ammo down and believes it's just 11.3 grains of Power Pistol powder.

... do they have some special blend of powder not available to the public?

FYI, buzz is Alliant BE-86 is OEM powder used for premium JHP ammunition for decades (Think Speer Gold Dot/Federal HST) and I have switched from WSF to BE-86 for my duplicate practice JHP ammunition due to higher velocities and greater accuracy (I used factory Gold Dot/Golden Sabre and have component bullets).

This is from 2023 Alliant Reloading Guide (Page 61) for 155 gr JHP so if using lighter 150 gr bullet, will likely achieve higher 1425 fps - https://www.alliantpowder.com/resou...iantPowderReloadersGuide_SinglePgsNoCrops.pdf

• 10mm Federal 155 gr JHP BE-86 COL 1.250" Max 9.3 gr (1403 fps)

 

[AJC1]

You're right. Which is why I originally planned to just buy some of the Underwood rounds. Before I looked it up, I figured I'd get 200 rounds. That would let me get zeroed, practice with it some, and have some left to hunt. Then I realized 200 rounds of it is $480. That's when I hit the pause button. I could probably buy a couple of boxes and get it zeroed and eliminate the practice, but it's a lot more attractive to reload it for half the cost and get to enjoy shooting it too.

My plan would be to hand load hundreds and be well acquainted before buying expensive purpose driven ammo. At that point, I would shoot 5 to verify zero and hunt the other 15. Based on what I have here I'd load practice rounds with blue dot and likely a cast boolit. I'd hope to hunt before I wore the gun out

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My plan would be to hand load hundreds and be well acquainted before buying expensive purpose driven ammo. At that point, I would shoot 5 to verify zero and hunt the other 15. Based on what I have here I'd load practice rounds with blue dot and likely a cast boolit. I'd hope to hunt before I wore the gun out

I kinda like this profile

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Flat base, too. 2-2-96 alloy.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I've taken near 30 or 40 whitetail with 180 and 200 GR xtp over blue dot. Any 10mm velocity is fine on animals up to that size. Bullet weight doesn't matter much either. Ive also killed several injured cattle and a couple dying horse with no issue at all. Guns from my old delta and D&D right up through my Glocks and Sig.

I've killed several deer with my downloaded 180 GR cast bullets over a light load of unique too. Just as dead.

You don't need a magical load to kill an ignorant whitetail deer.

 

[ballman6711]

Given that you're open to different options, here's my suggestion.

Find a 180-200gr wfn that feeds and functions well in your gun, pick a powder that gives you the velocity you are looking for, develop an accurate load, and then practice until you're happy with the results on target at the distances you expect to hunt at.

Deer are not that hard to kill, and I would think a 1200fps round would do just fine with a wfn. Just need a well placed shot at a reasonable distance.

I would look at a powder coated option from Acme, MBC, etc.., buy 100 to try, and once you find the load, buy a bunch and load them up.

chris

 

[slowr1der]

FYI, buzz is Alliant BE-86 is OEM powder used for premium JHP ammunition for decades (Think Speer Gold Dot/Federal HST) and I have switched from WSF to BE-86 for my duplicate practice JHP ammunition due to higher velocities and greater accuracy (I used factory Gold Dot/Golden Sabre and have component bullets).

This is from 2023 Alliant Reloading Guide (Page 61) for 155 gr JHP so if using lighter 150 gr bullet, will likely achieve higher 1425 fps - https://www.alliantpowder.com/resou...iantPowderReloadersGuide_SinglePgsNoCrops.pdf

• 10mm Federal 155 gr JHP BE-86 COL 1.250" Max 9.3 gr (1403 fps)

I really appreciate this. I'm going to try to pick up a some BE-86 to try it out. I've never used any. I suspect you're right and I can probably get pretty close to the same velocity out of it safely.

 

[slowr1der]

I've taken near 30 or 40 whitetail with 180 and 200 GR xtp over blue dot. Any 10mm velocity is fine on animals up to that size. Bullet weight doesn't matter much either. Ive also killed several injured cattle and a couple dying horse with no issue at all. Guns from my old delta and D&D right up through my Glocks and Sig.

I've killed several deer with my downloaded 180 GR cast bullets over a light load of unique too. Just as dead.

You don't need a magical load to kill an ignorant whitetail deer.

I also really appreciate this post. I've never been one to care about velocity in the past, and I've never found deer hard to kill with a rifle. However, I've never done much handgun hunting and the one time I did shoot one with a 9mm it was a pretty terrible experience and I never recovered it. It made me a bit overly concerned on thinking I might need more than I do when handgun hunting.

 

[slowr1der]

Given that you're open to different options, here's my suggestion.

Find a 180-200gr wfn that feeds and functions well in your gun, pick a powder that gives you the velocity you are looking for, develop an accurate load, and then practice until you're happy with the results on target at the distances you expect to hunt at.

Deer are not that hard to kill, and I would think a 1200fps round would do just fine with a wfn. Just need a well placed shot at a reasonable distance.

I would look at a powder coated option from Acme, MBC, etc.., buy 100 to try, and once you find the load, buy a bunch and load them up.

chris

I'm definitely not opposed to a WFN bullet. I just hadn't looked at them, because I was thinking I'd need something with expansion. Then discovered the Leigh bullets, which while they don't expand they create a large wound channel. That may no be the case though. Have you shot any deer deer with a wfn bullet to see the results? I may be way over thinking this.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I also really appreciate this post. I've never been one to care about velocity in the past, and I've never found deer hard to kill with a rifle. However, I've never done much handgun hunting and the one time I did shoot one with a 9mm it was a pretty terrible experience and I never recovered it. It made me a bit overly concerned on thinking I might need more than I do when handgun hunting.

I started hunting with a 44 around 2000. Went to a 10mm just for fun. Used a 460 some in big open areas. Then back to 44 and 10mm.

There is no difference whatsoever for the average open sight handgun hunter in anything from 357 to 460xvr for whitetail. Out to 75-100 they all make practically the same hole on a deer sized animal. Past 100 most people are just going to miss or wound the animal regardless of wether their handgun is 357 or 50 BMG.

Until your very good or scoped (or both) a mild 357 or 10mm will cleanly kill deer with a good hit as far as you can shoot. And a 500 or 460 won't kill any better with a gut or ass shot.

I routinely shoot at my 100 yard 8 inch gong with my subcompact Glock 40 and hit it. I'm still not good enough to NEED my 460 unless it's scoped. Ive not carried out nor my 454 in years. Some are.. you may be. But I'm not and ive yet to lose a single whitetail that I shot at with a handgun. I also squirrel and rabbit hunt with a handgun