.380 ACP the Red Haired Stepchild?

trackskippy said:

I had both 42's and 43's, and never noticed that they shot any differently or that there was really any difference in recoil between them. My only real beef with either of them was, they were a tad too skinny and tended to move around in your hand under recoil, especially when shooting quickly. Stippling helped there a lot, as it does with most things, but the 26 just feels a lot better, and in all respects.


As far as this goes, you generally get out of things what you put in. If whats being referred to here are shooters who arent beginners, then something is wrong with their training.

The whole point of putting in constant time and effort at the range in practice is to condition your brain to be able to shoot, on demand, without having to think about the act of shooting, and can focus on the problem at hand. If youre still at the level that you have to consciously think about shooting, while youre shooting, youre not yet there.

At some point, reality has to come into this too (who'd have thunk, right ). Will a 380 do the job? Sure, if YOU dont let it down and can make it work, across the board. Can you do it with the gun you choose, quickly and without thought? Thats more the question than what the caliber is.

People get all wrapped up in the caliber thing, yet, more often than not, the caliber wouldn't matter, because they cant realistically make things work, when called to on demand, with whatever it is they have. Reality sucks, you get what you get, when you get it, and not what you think is fair and acceptable to what you choose to carry.

If you can run a simple and basic course of fire with what you choose to carry and can come out with a reasonably good score, youre on your way. If you cant, then you really need to reevaluate things here. There are other innocent lives at risk here, besides your own.

And for those who cry and complain that its too hot and you dont wear enough clothes and cant possibly hide anything other than a third like back up, "comfortably", you need to put some time and work into figuring things out. With all the different holsters and carriers available to us today, if you cant find something and make it work with a more realistic gun, you havent tried very hard at all.

Ive been doing it on a daily basis since the mid 70's, when there wasnt much of a choice in holsters, and had no troubles doing so, and in an area with summers in the mid 90's plus, and high humidity, and working and playing every day in a very physical manner doing so, to boot. I lived and worked outside, year round, and base things on that, and not living in a controlled environment.

Still doing it every day now too....

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See link in post 39.

I’m interested in hearing what advantage over .380 is thought to be had by .38 Special. It has more case capacity so you can use a heavier bullet, but it seems the trend is for lighter bullets for SD.

It seems to me that the numbers for comparable barrel lengths are pretty close between these two chamberings but .38 special gets significantly more respect on the interwebs.

Paul7 said:

See link in post 39.

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Ive seen that article before. Dont know what, if anything it actually proves, other than some guy ran some numbers and posted an article. According to his chart there, if youre a numbers guy and all that really matters, the 357mag, and a few others lose out to the 380, which I think will get you a bit of push back if you want to push it. Stats are not the thing to base things on here.

Ive always looked at this as each individual instance is its own critter, and its a crap shoot how things will go and turn out. The more you work on things beforehand, as realistically as you can, with what you carry will likely increase your odds, but thats no guarantee either. Then again, if you havent been keeping up, there's a good chance your odds will likely go the other way too. Then again, either way, a blind squirrel gets lucky now and then too.

Paul7 said:

So if that's true, and a .380 will be more likely to make hits on target due to being more shootable, and smaller to carry, why do I want to use a 9mm? BTW, I am in FL so no heavy clothing to shoot through, and I'm not expecting to have to shoot through a car window as cops might. In SD, as in hunting, I got over magnumitis a long time ago.

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This is what I was referring to in that post.

"Most" of the smaller 380s are blowback guns and not easier to shoot than the locked breech 9mm's of a similar size. The Glocks are different as both are lock breech and both soft easy shooters. And as I said, having had and shot both, I really didnt see any difference in their accuracy and shootability. I dont disagree with you on how the 42's shoot, they are a good little gun, but I also came to the conclusion, at least for me anyway, they, or the 43's for that matter, didnt do anything better than my 26's, and the 26's are even easier to shoot well with, and just give you more options.

Again, the 380 will certainly work, as long as YOU are capable of making it work. That last part goes for anything too, not just the 380's. The smaller you go gun-wise, generally the harder things become trying to get there. And its a lot of hard work getting there too.

Mauser lover said:

I’m interested in hearing what advantage over .380 is thought to be had by .38 Special. It has more case capacity so you can use a heavier bullet, but it seems the trend is for lighter bullets for SD.

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Smaller round for one, the .380 was designed by JMB I believe, for smokeless powder so smaller case, the .38 is really an obsolete black powder design.

It seems to me that the numbers for comparable barrel lengths are pretty close between these two chamberings but .38 special gets significantly more respect on the interwebs.

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And I don't know why, other than maybe the illusion that the bigger .38 round is somehow more powerful than the smaller .380.

trackskippy said:

Ive seen that article before. Dont know what, if anything it actually proves, other than some guy ran some numbers and posted an article. According to his chart there, if youre a numbers guy and all that really matters, the 357mag, and a few others lose out to the 380, which I think will get you a bit of push back if you want to push it. Stats are not the thing to base things on here.

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I'll take facts over internet speculation any time. Those facts I posted weren't about which round does better in gel block tests, but how they did stopping crimes, which is the whole point of carrying. ANY round fired at a perp will break off a good number of attacks, and I've said before, they may be criminals but they aren't stupid. They aren't going to stop and wonder what bullet just whizzed by their ear. You want to carry a .357 snubbie, go ahead, but I bet a guy with a .380 will land more hits faster in the vitals than you. Would love to know if anyone knows of a case where someone with a .380 did so and it didn't stop the attack.

Ive always looked at this as each individual instance is its own critter, and its a crap shoot how things will go and turn out. The more you work on things beforehand, as realistically as you can, with what you carry will likely increase your odds, but thats no guarantee either. Then again, if you havent been keeping up, there's a good chance your odds will likely go the other way too. Then again, either way, a blind squirrel gets lucky now and then too.


This is what I was referring to in that post.

"Most" of the smaller 380s are blowback guns and not easier to shoot than the locked breech 9mm's of a similar size. The Glocks are different as both are lock breech and both soft easy shooters. And as I said, having had and shot both, I really didnt see any difference in their accuracy and shootability. I dont disagree with you on how the 42's shoot, they are a good little gun, but I also came to the conclusion, at least for me anyway, they, or the 43's for that matter, didnt do anything better than my 26's, and the 26's are even easier to shoot well with, and just give you more options.

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I personally prefer pocket carry here in FL, and the 43 and 26 are not pocket carry guns IMHO, much bigger and heavier loaded. And according to my chart, the 9mm doesn't do anything better than the .380 when it comes to stopping attacks.

Antihero said:

It's like holding on to an exploding credit card

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That's exactly what shooting the LCP felt like, and good luck hitting anything with it.

trackskippy said:

I know you boys who pocket carry like to think youll always have your hand on the gun in your pocket, but thats not at all realistic. And its not as non-descript as you like to think either, at least not to anyone paying attention. And when you do it, it also puts you in a compromising and bad spot, if your opponent is close.

Id be willing to bet, I can move, clear, and shoot a burst with that 17 faster and more accurately than most pocket carriers with their hand on the gun at the start. Hand out of the pocket and you have no chance at all.

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You don't have to have it out of your pocket to shoot. And a G42 and 17 are two different things size and weight wise.

I don't have much expierence with the .380 except for one time. Fishing around Island Park Res in Idaho and was carrting a friends .380, llama, I believe and saw a grizzly about 300 yards across the water. Looked at the .380, thought, "Nope". Didn't get bothered that day, but, anytime after that in that area, its .44 mag or .45 Colt. That was my only time with a .380, so, not very familiar with it. I'm sure its fine within its limits.

jdc1244 said:

9mm Browning Court, the Euro-round, a ‘gentleman’s cartridge’ – designed for self-defense at close range with a small, concealable pistol; and in this role it works well.

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Uhhh.........what?
A cartridge designed by an American, in America, first manufactured in America and the first handgun in that round was American.
It was originally the .380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
Every other name was just a translation and not what John Browning named it.

Paul7 said:

I'll take facts over internet speculation any time. Those facts I posted weren't about which round does better in gel block tests, but how they did stopping crimes, which is the whole point of carrying. ANY round fired at a perp will break off a good number of attacks, and I've said before, they may be criminals but they aren't stupid. They aren't going to stop and wonder what bullet just whizzed by their ear. You want to carry a .357 snubbie, go ahead, but I bet a guy with a .380 will land more hits faster in the vitals than you. Would love to know if anyone knows of a case where someone with a .380 did so and it didn't stop the attack.

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How do you know what was posted in that article are "facts"? They are just someone elses opinions.

If the 380 is caliber of choice, I would think all the police and governemt agencies, etc, would be all over it. I guess their actual testing has shown otherwise.

You also cant assume or plan for someone breaking off an attack, just because you show a gun or maybe even shoot. You have to assume that if youre going to draw your gun, you're going to shoot, and you need to be able to stop things quickly and definitively. That should be your focus, and nothing more.

As far as your 357 comment, you make assumptions that again, are their own critter, in the moment, and totally depend on the shooters. I dont carry a 357 snubby anymore, but I have in the distant past for a short while, and I still shoot a couple at least a couple of times a month, and Id take that challenge, especially at anything past bad breath distances.

As far as the 380 misses? Im sure there are tons of them, just like anything else. Just look at the documented hit rates of supposedly trained police in gunfights. Pretty scary when you think of it, and most civilians arent even at the basic level most police qualification courses cover.

Most people arent near as good as they like to tell you, and that's just when you ask to see at the range and they arent under stress.

Paul7 said:

I personally prefer pocket carry here in FL, and the 43 and 26 are not pocket carry guns IMHO, much bigger and heavier loaded. And according to my chart, the 9mm doesn't do anything better than the .380 when it comes to stopping attacks.

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There are other "pockets" you can put your gun and reload in, that arent in your pants. They are also easier and faster to access under stress, more concealable, and can carry a more realistic gun.

You need to expand your database and look around at a few more charts, if charts are your thing.

Keep in mind too, the 380 is pretty limited in its loadings and doesnt offer the options that 9mm does, which in some cases, start to get into 357SIG and 357Mag power level territory. Im not saying 380 doesnt have its place and uses, but its not what I consider a primary round.

Up until recently, I carried and regularly shot Winchester Ranger T +P+ 9mm in my 9mm carry guns, including the 26's, and they are close to that 357SIG power range. They are accurate and easy to shoot well with out of that gun too. I also shot them in my 43 when I had it. They were a little snappier out of the 43, but really not all that different than my reloads that I practice with in all of my 9mm's, which are 124's loaded to around 1150-1200 fps.

Paul7 said:

You don't have to have it out of your pocket to shoot. And a G42 and 17 are two different things size and weight wise.

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Im guessing youre not telling us youre shooting through your pants pocket here? If you are, Id love to see you practicing that.

And no doubt, the 42 is a bit smaller and lighter, but the 17 isnt all that big or heavy either, and not a bother to carry at all. It is a LOT easier to get a hold of quickly and surely, and to shoot well with, and gives you a LOT more options, should you need them.

I dont know about you, but my choices are based on the worst case, not hope, so I choose to carry whats likely going to work the best in the worst of cases, and strive to be prepared for that.

Anyone can just throw a gun on, or in their pocket and call it good. That doesnt mean they are armed though, it just means they have a gun.

trackskippy said:

If the 380 is caliber of choice, I would think all the police and governemt agencies, etc, would be all over it

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Sir, have you not learned on gun forums that the same threat is different versus police officer or civilian.

Mr. Bad Guy is shot by officer, it enrages him that the officer had the gall to shoot and this fury causes it to take multiple hits to incapacitate.

Mr. Bad Guy starts attacking civilian who upon seeing civilian pulling his 380 from pocket panics Mr. Bad Guy with fear.
Mr. Bad Guy is predicted to run away and if he doesn't by the time that side is racked (see what I did there) nearly any hit to the torso is expected to stop aggressive action and if it doesn't (Oh no) the civilian needs only fire a 2nd shot which will assuredly drop Mr. Bad Guy.

However, there is a caveat... where. Location is inexorably linked to incapacitation, seems hard to believe but I've seen it posted repeatedly.
Attackers in "good areas" are anticipated to be easily incapacitated; conveniently this allows rationalizing carrying a minimal gun in nice areas.
However, in "bad areas" attackers are perceived to be more like the ones encountered by police, they may not run away. Fortunately, this dilemma is easily solved as the "bad area" attackers are conveniently immobile! You have to go to them! So, when you go to them you just carry that 9mm that you are usually unwilling to carry.

How this works on gun forums, civilian version. Same attacker, different places.
On a walk outside your house attacker is easily incapacitated by 380 FMJ couple rounds at most, if they don't run away. LCP in pocket covers this.
Going to Wal-Mart in the "bad area". Oh, that same attacker is going to be harder to stop there better carry a 9mm.

trackskippy said:

"Most" of the smaller 380s are blowback guns and not easier to shoot than the locked breech 9mm's of a similar size. The Glocks are different as both are lock breech and both soft easy shooters.

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The Kel-Tec pocket pistols in .32 and .380 are also locked-breech, as are the Ruger LCP, SIG P238, and Beretta Pico. Blowback design seems to be a holdover from the days of the Walther PP/PPK and its DA/SA cousins, like the SIG P230/232, Bersa Thunder, Beretta 84/85, etc.

trackskippy said:

How do you know what was posted in that article are "facts"?

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Uh, because I read the link, which you apparently didn't?

They are just someone elses opinions.

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Not really.

"Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here."

If you've done more in-depth research than that, I'm all ears. It sounds like all you have is 'bigger is better'.

If the 380 is caliber of choice, I would think all the police and governemt agencies, etc, would be all over it. I guess their actual testing has shown otherwise.

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Red herring, we're talking about civilian use, not police use which is different, just as military use is different from police use.

Most people arent near as good as they like to tell you, and that's just when you ask to see at the range and they arent under stress.

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So why complicate things with a needlessly harder to shoot gun? As I said before here, one of the gun mags did a test and their gun guys were 50% less accurate with slower follow up shots with a micro 9mm compared to a .380.

There are other "pockets" you can put your gun and reload in, that arent in your pants. They are also easier and faster to access under stress, more concealable, and can carry a more realistic gun.

You need to expand your database and look around at a few more charts, if charts are your thing.

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Heck, I'd be happy if you just read the link you're trying to discuss.

Keep in mind too, the 380 is pretty limited in its loadings and doesnt offer the options that 9mm does, which in some cases, start to get into 357SIG and 357Mag power level territory. Im not saying 380 doesnt have its place and uses, but its not what I consider a primary round.

Up until recently, I carried and regularly shot Winchester Ranger T +P+ 9mm in my 9mm carry guns, including the 26's, and they are close to that 357SIG power range. They are accurate and easy to shoot well with out of that gun too. I also shot them in my 43 when I had it. They were a little snappier out of the 43, but really not all that different than my reloads that I practice with in all of my 9mm's, which are 124's loaded to around 1150-1200 fps.

Im guessing youre not telling us youre shooting through your pants pocket here? If you are, Id love to see you practicing that.

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It can be done if needed, I mean the bullet's going to go through the other guy's clothes too, right?

And no doubt, the 42 is a bit smaller and lighter, but the 17 isnt all that big or heavy either, and not a bother to carry at all.

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HUH? A loaded 17 weighs twice as much as a 42, and is of much bigger dimensions.

It is a LOT easier to get a hold of quickly and surely, and to shoot well with, and gives you a LOT more options, should you need them.

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Show me where those choices result in a better outcome in real world self defense.

I dont know about you, but my choices are, based on the worst case, not hope, so I choose to carry whats likely going to work the best in the worst of cases, and strive to be prepared for that.

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We can't prepare for every eventuality, I carry for the average one, which is supposed to be 3 shots, 3', 3 seconds.

Anyone can just throw a gun on, or in their pocket and call it good. That doesnt mean they are armed though, it just means they have a gun.

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Which can be said about people who carry a Glock 17 too.

I already told you I had read the article and had seen it previously before you even posted it.

It is just someone else's opinion, his. Hes not the only one with those opinions either, and actually, hes late to the game.

I agree completely, why complicate things with a gun that's harder to shoot well with? And if you choose to carry something that is, its up to you to put in the time and effort to be good with whatever that may be. There are no free rides.

As I said before, I read the article you posted, and a bunch of others over the years that deal with the same thing. When things like 22's and 380's ect start showing results that they are more lethal than things that really are, they tend to get you to lose interest and trust them and their "data" very quickly.

And as Ive said numerous times now, every situation is its own critter, and its up to you to make whatever it is you choose to carry work. The caliber isnt the major part of all this, to a point, and the more realistic the caliber, the better your chances over all. Its still up to you to be able to shoot the gun in a realistic manner and to do so, on demand. If youre telling me you can do that in ALL situations with a pocket sized handgun, your credibility is going into the above circular file with those other things.

Im going to have to assume here, youve never tried to actually carry something like the 17, etc, on a daily basis to know what can be done and done quite easily in most cases. Ive carried full sized handguns that way for around 50 years now, and much of that in NPE's, and thats day in, day out, in very active places, doing active things, and never a problem. And FLA isnt the only place in the world that gets warm and humid. Most of my daily life has been spent in places, both work and play, with no climate control.

92° here today, been a nice sunny and warm day. It aint FLA humid yet, but it wont be long now.

As to the results with a better outcome, I also have to assume you dont shoot much in practice from the holster and the way you need to be able to shoot in the situations being discussed here. If you dont understand that its much easier and quicker to get a good shooting grip on something like a Glock 17, Colt Commander, SIG P226, etc, and quickly have the gun out and rounds on target as your shooting and moving, makes me wonder.

Ive tried and carried all sorts of guns over the years, and made decisions based on what would realistically work from vetting them in practice, from how they would be carried and with live ammo shooting them as they would be shot. Youd be amazed at the number of "good ideas" dont turn out to be such, when you actually vet them that way.

Pocket carry is about the slowest and hardest to make things work, "across the board", and in most cases. Ankle carry actually beats it in many cases, and something like the Smart Carry, is only slightly slower than AIWB, and works very well. The main difference between those two there is, the gun is just below the belt line, and the grip is smaller, and a bit more difficult to get a good grip on, especially quickly. Still, its WAY faster and easier than pants pocket carry, and its not near as limiting on your gun choices.

The whole point of "preparing", is to actually be prepared, and to the best of your ability.

"Hope" isnt being prepared. Trying to get by with the least amount of effort, isnt being prepared. Going with and basing things on what the "stats" say, the rule of 3's, etc, and skipping the "hard parts" of all this, isnt being prepared.

If you are the least bit serious about things, you know how hard it is to get to the point youre at least somewhat competent, and its a never ending and constant thing just trying to maintain that and try and keep up. And it only gets worse the older you get.

And I personally have always taken things pretty seriously, and still to this day, continue to work on it on basically a daily basis with some things, and couple times a week basis in live fire with all sorts of long and hand guns.

Just this past week, I put a couple of hundred rounds of 9mm through the two types of guns I normally carry, and from how I carry them, a couple of hundred more through a couple of different autos and revolvers, trying to stay fresh with them, and hundred rounds of 223 through one of my AR's, and every round of all of it, I was on my feet. Thats basically a "normal" week too.

How about you?

I always thought 380 was for people who wanted the recoil of a 9mm with a slower and smaller projectile but maybe these new-fangled non-blowback pistols are more comfortable than the 380's I tried in the 90's.

The reality is that we don't have enough publically available evidence to confirm without a doubt that it will either ALWAYS or NEVER work for anything small enough to work in a handgun. There are too many variables - lighting, distance, ammo QC, tripping hazards, bone density, and anything else you can imagine. If you're confronted by a 400 lb bad guy, 9" of penetration may not make it to a vital organ ... The reality is that you have to find what variables you are going to care about and maximize those.

I prefer a round that throws a heavier bullet as faster speeds with a pistol as many extras in the magazine as possible, but not everyone on the internet can be right like me.

21H40 said:

I always thought 380 was for people who wanted the recoil of a 9mm with a slower and smaller projectile but maybe these new-fangled non-blowback pistols are more comfortable than the 380's I tried in the 90's.

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You're several decades behind the times.

21H40 said:

I always thought 380 was for people who wanted the recoil of a 9mm with a slower and smaller projectile but maybe these new-fangled non-blowback pistols are more comfortable than the 380's I tried in the 90's.

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I can say from personal experience that the P365-380, Glock 42 and SCCY CPX-3 are softer recoiling and easier to rack than any 9mm I've ever owned. The LCP-2 and LCP MAX, not so much (recoil, anyway), but I've never owned a 12oz 9mm. I imagine shooting a Diamondback DB9 or a Kel-Tec PF9 must be pretty eye opening.

trackskippy said:

I already told you I had read the article and had seen it previously before you even posted it.

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So why did you make the false statement that the link wasn't facts, only opinion? Opinion is what your posts are. Get back to me when you've done more research than he has.

It is just someone else's opinion, his.

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No it isn't.

I agree completely, why complicate things with a gun that's harder to shoot well with? And if you choose to carry something that is, its up to you to put in the time and effort to be good with whatever that may be. There are no free rides.

As I said before, I read the article you posted, and a bunch of others over the years that deal with the same thing. When things like 22's and 380's ect start showing results that they are more lethal than things that really are, they tend to get you to lose interest and trust them and their "data" very quickly.

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Right, don't let the facts get in your way. Perhaps people shoot those better and make better hits? It's been said more people are killed by .22s than any other caliber, granted because there are a lot out there used in shootings.

And as Ive said numerous times now, every situation is its own critter, and its up to you to make whatever it is you choose to carry work. The caliber isnt the major part of all this, to a point, and the more realistic the caliber, the better your chances over all. Its still up to you to be able to shoot the gun in a realistic manner and to do so, on demand. If youre telling me you can do that in ALL situations with a pocket sized handgun, your credibility is going into the above circular file with those other things.

Im going to have to assume here, youve never tried to actually carry something like the 17, etc, on a daily basis to know what can be done and done quite easily in most cases. Ive carried full sized handguns that way for around 50 years now, and much of that in NPE's, and thats day in, day out, in very active places, doing active things, and never a problem. And FLA isnt the only place in the world that gets warm and humid. Most of my daily life has been spent in places, both work and play, with no climate control.

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What do you want, a cookie?

92° here today, been a nice sunny and warm day. It aint FLA humid yet, but it wont be long now.

As to the results with a better outcome, I also have to assume you dont shoot much in practice from the holster and the way you need to be able to shoot in the situations being discussed here. If you dont understand that its much easier and quicker to get a good shooting grip on something like a Glock 17, Colt Commander, SIG P226, etc, and quickly have the gun out and rounds on target as your shooting and moving, makes me wonder.

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You must be expecting to be in some Western style fast draws or something. Situational awareness should at least give you some lead time.

Ive tried and carried all sorts of guns over the years, and made decisions based on what would realistically work from vetting them in practice, from how they would be carried and with live ammo shooting them as they would be shot. Youd be amazed at the number of "good ideas" dont turn out to be such, when you actually vet them that way.

Pocket carry is about the slowest and hardest to make things work, "across the board", and in most cases. Ankle carry actually beats it in many cases, and something like the Smart Carry, is only slightly slower than AIWB, and works very well. The main difference between those two there is, the gun is just below the belt line, and the grip is smaller, and a bit more difficult to get a good grip on, especially quickly. Still, its WAY faster and easier than pants pocket carry, and its not near as limiting on your gun choices.

The whole point of "preparing", is to actually be prepared, and to the best of your ability.

"Hope" isnt being prepared. Trying to get by with the least amount of effort, isnt being prepared. Going with and basing things on what the "stats" say, the rule of 3's, etc, and skipping the "hard parts" of all this, isnt being prepared.

If you are the least bit serious about things, you know how hard it is to get to the point youre at least somewhat competent, and its a never ending and constant thing just trying to maintain that and try and keep up. And it only gets worse the older you get.

And I personally have always taken things pretty seriously, and still to this day, continue to work on it on basically a daily basis with some things, and couple times a week basis in live fire with all sorts of long and hand guns.

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Yes, many people overcomplicate things. Here's a guy who didn't get your memo a .380 is useless for self defense, neither did the perps:



I don't see a holster so assume he was pocket carrying. He must have put thousands of rounds through that gun to be able to do that, according to your point below, right?

Just this past week, I put a couple of hundred rounds of 9mm through the two types of guns I normally carry, and from how I carry them, a couple of hundred more through a couple of different autos and revolvers, trying to stay fresh with them, and hundred rounds of 223 through one of my AR's, and every round of all of it, I was on my feet. Thats basically a "normal" week too.

How about you?

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One range trip with three guns, had fun breaking in a new Wilson Combat 9mm. What do ARs have to do with carrying for self defense? It's like telling us how many shotgun rounds you fired last week.

Pistolay said:

I can say from personal experience that the P365-380, Glock 42 and SCCY CPX-3 are softer recoiling and easier to rack than any 9mm I've ever owned.

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For sure. Softer recoiling = better faster shooting and more rounds on targete.

For me, the .380 ACP is a huge compromise over 9mm, because you're likely to either not expand, or expand and fail to penetrate deep enough.

Personally, I carry my LCP with FMJs, for the above, but also for an additional reason: FMJs feed much better in my LCP than hollowpoints do. Most hollowpoints feed, but there is a discernable lag when the bullet hits the feed ramp, which is not nearly as pronounced with the more pointed FMJs.

I carry 9s and .38 specials with premium self-defense ammo. I carry .40 and .357 magnum with just white box hollowpoints. The bigger the bullet, or the more power behind it, the more I trust it to do its thing.

Look what we have here:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/example-of-how-pistol-rounds-suck.918096/
That guy just walked off and we can assume those were at least 9mm HP.
380 is for when I can't do better; unrequired shirt tucking and/or "its hot" are not examples of can't.
Wearing gym shorts, going to the gym a holstered 380 LCP in pocket is "best I can do" but then there is also a Glock 26 in Smartcarry.
Otherwise 9mm minimum.

In before that guy was able to walk off because a cop was pulling the trigger; but, a civilian with 380 would have quickly incapacitated him, same shot placement.
I called it in post #62 LOL.

Paul7 said:

So why did you make the false statement that the link wasn't facts, only opinion? Opinion is what your posts are. Get back to me when you've done more research than he has.



No it isn't.



Right, don't let the facts get in your way. Perhaps people shoot those better and make better hits? It's been said more people are killed by .22s than any other caliber, granted because there are a lot out there used in shootings.



What do you want, a cookie?



You must be expecting to be in some Western style fast draws or something. Situational awareness should at least give you some lead time.



Yes, many people overcomplicate things. Here's a guy who didn't get your memo a .380 is useless for self defense, neither did the perps:



I don't see a holster so assume he was pocket carrying. He must have put thousands of rounds through that gun to be able to do that, according to your point below, right?



One range trip with three guns, had fun breaking in a new Wilson Combat 9mm. What do ARs have to do with carrying for self defense? It's like telling us how many shotgun rounds you fired last week.

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Dude, you win, you obviously have it all figured out. If you want to base things on assumptions and what others tell you, have at it.

The only one true thing here is, no matter what you carry or the caliber, it will take "exactly" the number of rounds it takes, to solve the problem, nothing more, nothing less. There are no magic bullets.

If youre going into this thinking you carry the badest round because some dude in a report told you so, and dont back things up with real world skills, youre seriously deceiving and deluding yourself. But hey its still a sorta free country, so knock yourself out.

And you obviously missed the numerous times Ive said things like 380 will work, "if" YOU are up to it and can make it work. I personally think other things are a better choice for a primary gun, and anything less than the 9mm is basically relegated to back up, last ditch status, but thats just me. So if its your choice, are we to assume you are at that skill level that you can make your 380 pocket guns work in most any situation you might need it? Thats the key, not what the stats tell you.

Situational awareness is just one part of the package and just as important as any of the others. The boy in your video had the right and proper mindset, and was lucky he pulled it off.

And if youre interested, there are a ton of actual videos like that on YouTube and a couple of other places, and there is plenty to be learned there. A lot of failures too, by those who just threw a gun in their pocket and thought they were prepared. These ain't your normal tv movies, where everyone falls down dead after being shot and the good guy always wins. Real-world, the good guy doesnt always win. More to learn there than by reading reports and stats about ammo too.

If you dont understand the need to be "realistically" proficient with your long guns as well, I dont know what to tell you. What do your one shot kill reports tell you? Id bet the 223 is pretty high up there in their lists, but I could be wrong, the 380 might just squeek by.

I'm increasingly impressed by the Walther CCP M2 380. There have only been a very few handguns that fit my hand as well or that I found more accurate and controllable at self defense distances. A lot of the accuracy is likely due to how well the grip fits my hand but also its fixed barrel and simple blowback system. The polygonal barrel rifling may also help by slightly increasing the speed.

Initially the pistol was consistently shooting low but Walther included several different height front sights and it was really easy to change to a lower sight. Each step brought the pattern up and with the shortest of the three sights I was right on vertically from 7 to 15 yards. At the range yesterday I put all eight rounds in an inch and a half pattern centered on the bullseye freehand with moderate rate firing.

The delayed blowback system in the CCP series really works. The recoil impulse is almost unnoticeable; maybe even less that shooting the other two EZ 380s, the S&W 380EZ and Ruger Security 380. I still fumble a little lining up the piston with the cylinder on reassembly but it's gotten much easier as well.

CDW4ME said:

380 is for when I can't do better; unrequired shirt tucking and/or "its hot" are not examples of can't.
Wearing gym shorts, going to the gym a holstered 380 LCP in pocket is "best I can do" but then there is also a Glock 26 in Smartcarry.
Otherwise 9mm minimum.

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While on a practical matter I don't disagree with your conclusion (I always carry, and it's either a .45 [most often] or a bigger 9mm OWB [days off, like right now]), you have just made yourself the arbiter of everyone else's can't. I also notice that you carved out an exception for yourself. While voluntary shirt tucking and hot weather are not examples of necessity, wearing gymn shorts are? Are you required to run on a treadmill without a belt? Are you required to even be at the gymn? Why am I subject to your considerations of necessity? Everyone makes choices, and the value hierarchy in his own mind is what dictates what is reasonable.

If you are going to carry, you should do so within the confines of your own capability. Hits on target are what matter, the faster they are, the better. The more effective each individual hit can be, the better. But skill set always comes before your tool set, and mindset always comes before skill set. It doesn't do any good for my (mechanic's) tool set to be in my wife's car. That's not her thing (mindset), and she doesn't know how to use many of my tools (skill set).

I'm still wondering, like the OP, why the .380 is maligned and the .38 special is respected. 9mm (x19), I can give you. It's loaded to consistently higher performing standards. F always equals MA, and 9mm has more M and A than similar .380s. Maybe 9mm is more gun than necessary, but not too many folks argue that way, and I'm a .45 guy. With the advances in bullet design in the last decade or so, I think a modern .380 is more effective than .38 special was in 2000 (or ever before, of course). Maybe even more effective than a 9mm in 2000. I think it's a little absurd that as SD cartridges and arms get more effective, we draw bigger lines around my standard being the right one.

jar said:

I would not carry in a place where I was told I could not carry. I am not just another criminal.

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One is not a criminal in my state entering a private business with no gun signs, carrying.

That person will be a criminal in the form of criminal trespassing if they are told to leave by the workers/owners of said business and do not comply.

So I carry where the law allows and that includes in my state private businesses that have posted signage. And if they tell me to leave I’ll gladly leave.