Is there any room for serious improvement in the world of shotguns?

It might look like there isn't much room for improvement... Until somebody comes along with an idea that nobody thought of. If I knew what the next big thing was in the world of shotguns, I surely would be filing for patents as we speak. I can only offer minor suggestions to improve shotguns, most of which are probably personal preference.

People saw no reason to improve on the horse, until the wheel came along. People lived for thousands of years with horse and buggy, and just accepted it as the way things were, until some guys decided to come along and create the iron horse.

The only thing I can think of is some good, super dense, CHEAP, non toxic shells.

.the only thing I haven't seen is a bullpup which I'm sure exists.

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You've never seen a bullpup shotgun?

High Standard came out with a semi in the 1960s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Standard_Model_10

Mossberg was selling factory bullpup 500s in the 1980s.

KelTec made big waves just in the last couple of years with their KSG, dual tube bullpup pump (14 total in the tubes, with selectable feeding).

Not much new under the sun.


You can even get a Saiga-12 bullpup, if you want.

And check out the "X-Rail" system: http://www.xrailbyrci.com/

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Obviously, shotguns for hunting and clays games are a VERY mature technology. There's not much the needs solving about putting a cloud of shot onto a flying bird. The new red-dot optics techniques for that sort of shooting might be a minor area of development, but that's about it.

So if you want to take shotgunning to some next level, you have to find an area that's still developing.

If you're really curious as to what's really working and what's in development on the cutting edge, get into the tactical, 3-gun competition world and pay attention to the problems and solutions discovered by the guys running their shotguns really hard. That super-heated world of competition will find and explore every avenue that offers any real advantage to the shooter.


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Having looked deeply into the world of go-fast competition you'll probably find that what works is often pretty "traditional" stuff. Why don't the high-speed, must-work comp guys genearally use PGOs, bull-pups, mini-shells, and other interesting novelties? Well, they try that stuff and figure out that it doesn't get them more hits, faster, so they shelve the idea and roll with what works. It's a fast, efficient way of vetting concepts. It can be frustrating if your goal is to do something that's new and different for the sake of being new and different. It's only good for hits on target.

What room is left for improvement?

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The shooter's skills through instruction and practice

Shot gunning is more art than science. A gun has to feel right, point naturally and be quick to shoulder. The English figured this out generations ago. Fine guns are a pleasure to hold and shoot. Today most guns are a compromise between cost, recoil reduction, capacity, payload and known shooting qualities. There are new developments in every part of the equation. More in cost than handling. Shotguns are made for more specific proposes too. A 10 gauge goose gun would not be at home shooting sporting clays. Once you use a fine gun, I can't imagine liking a bull pup. Tactical guns are a new direction too. Things will change but there will always be a place for classic guns.

Concidering how little technology has improved a shotguns effectiveness since WW1 I have serious doubt that there's much room for improvment from a hardware standpoint.
Work on the software.

The shotgun, as a machine, is pretty close to its apex. As are, IMO, the bolt action rifle and the revolver. There is likely to be room for fine improvements for many years to come but, major change to the concept are usually just complications, and the root success of the shotgun (and the bolt action and revolver) platform is 'simplicity'.

Many 'improvements' have come and gone the way of the Dodo because they were merely complications to a wonderfully simple machine.

I think shotguns shells need an upgrade.

Do away with the archaic rimmed design that prohibits good magazine feed and double stack abbilities, and perhaps add some sort of beveled nose to the cartridges to promote better feeding in semi-automatic guns. One company has an AR style auto shotgun that uses specifically designed rounds just like this.

The whole industry needs to upgrade to this style, no reason not to. Cost will be not much more at all vs. conventional shells once the design becomes mainstream.

With these shells I bet there will be an increase in new semi-auto box fed shotguns for military/LE use that will feed much better than previous generations and be able to be used in double stack magazines etc. for maximum firepower.

Now that's an interesting idea. I'd imagine the major roadblocks would be cost, tradition, and need, which are all interrelated.

If the entire new shell were made of a polymer that could keep the cost down, but we've not quite got that perfected yet. Have to be able to reliably extract with a polymer rim.

Need and tradition are more complicated. I see the role of shotguns for military and LE tactical purposes as minimal and shrinking as it is. There's just little that a shotgun does BETTER than a carbine, and that's with far more recoil, lower capacity, shorter range, heavier/bulkier ammo, etc. Door breaching, prisoner guarding, less-lethal...those roles don't seem to be poorly served by what's available now. And everything else in the infantryman's world seems far better handled with an M-4, unless even grater range is needed. So I look to those limited groups using shotguns now to phase them out, not to ask for more updated designs.

(Yes, I know that there are some fairly new military shotgun adaptations and contracts, but they are very limited in use and even law enforcement is shelving the scattergun in favor of the carbine.)

From a traditional uses standpoint, there's no glaring need to update ye olde shotguns shell. There really isn't anything better for swatting a flying bird than this or that traditional shotgun, and the shell is pretty much perfected for that purpose. Rimless would be neat-o, but doesn't really answer a call that shotgunners are sounding. With 37 bazillion 12 and 20 ga. guns already out there, who's really looking to ditch the tried-and-true?

Sam your so very right about the rim on the shell.

After all the AA12 has no problem handling a full magazine.

That AA12 is really interesting. Kind of takes the concept right to the very apex of the concept. But I find myself wondering when that would be the right answer to any question.

If the entire new shell were made of a polymer that could keep the cost down, but we've not quite got that perfected yet. Have to be able to reliably extract with a polymer rim.

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You mean like the old ACTIV shells?...

Yup, exactly!

I believe in the movie "Aliens", set way in the future, there's a scene where the soldiers are told not to use their ultra-modern "pulse rifles" and one of them pulls out what appears to be a 12 ga pump shotgun, maybe an 870. Looks like those guys did not anticipate much development left for the shotgun.

I have a feeling if we ever do see a major improvement in shotguns the new feature will be re-classified as a destructive device.

Yes, there is always room for improvements. The 870 for example could be improved with an ejector that is mounted with screws instead of rivets. The forend tube assembly could be designed to roll on bearings instead of metal to metal detents. Trigger plate assembly could be redesigned with the action release on the right side. See, there is always room for improvement.

However, if you are asking will there be a major innovation on the concept of the pump shotgun then I say no. Only improvements on how the weapons function better and are easier to work on and maintain.

And yes, there will always be the greatest thing coming out and gun safes are full of these "Latest Greatest Things" that people paid to much for just to get them first only to find out they are gimmicks and you can't beat a basic pump like the 870, 590 or other leading pumps being built today.

As for semi-autos, I don't know. I thought it had all been done till I fired the Versa Max. But of course Remington went back in time to come up with that one and it is a winner.

It'd be nice if someone could figure out a way to make a quality over/under at a three-figure price point. The price gap between a "good pump" and a "good O/U" is HUGE. Comparing Brownings to Brownings, you're looking at about a 3x price increase.

And redesign the O/U mechanism so that dry-firing doesn't damage the gun.

These aren't huge paradigm shifts, but they'd be nice to see.

Mitlov said:

It'd be nice if someone could figure out a way to make a quality over/under at a three-figure price point. The price gap between a "good pump" and a "good O/U" is HUGE. Comparing Brownings to Brownings, you're looking at about a 3x price increase.

And redesign the O/U mechanism so that dry-firing doesn't damage the gun.

These aren't huge paradigm shifts, but they'd be nice to see.

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Yes, give us these things. Also, a beautiful semi auto. Something to bridge the gap between a Tupperware gas gun and a swanky o/u. The benelli ethos is a step in the right direction. Now make it heavier and cheaper.

Personally, I'd like to see a transfer bar or hammer block design implemented on a 870, eliminating the need for "cruiser safe" empty chamber carry. If I'm not mistaken, dropping a loaded 870 can result in a negligent discharge. Not sure about other brands.

Tony_the_tiger said:

Personally, I'd like to see a transfer bar or hammer block design implemented on a 870, eliminating the need for "cruiser safe" empty chamber carry. If I'm not mistaken, dropping a loaded 870 can result in a negligent discharge. Not sure about other brands.

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"Cruiser safe" It is definitely needs to be eliminated.

We need conventionally stocked self-defense shotguns that are not bird guns in disguise. Why isn't every shotgun designed to be as drop safe as a Glock?

Tony_the_tiger said:

Personally, I'd like to see a transfer bar or hammer block design implemented on a 870, eliminating the need for "cruiser safe" empty chamber carry. If I'm not mistaken, dropping a loaded 870 can result in a negligent discharge. Not sure about other brands.

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You are very mistaken. That can not happen. You can not drop a loaded 870 and make it discharge, no way for that to happen. Here is proof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9jBuZO8VMc

Thank you for clearing that up for me AI & P. I was under the impression that it could ..

Smooth gun you got there... even after hammering it

I was reading up here about some issues with a trigger system used in several Remington products

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news...ertent-discharges?chromedomain=investigations

http://www.litigationandtrial.com/2...umer-protection/defective-remington-triggers/

Yes, NBC is really a standard for the Second Amendment rights of us gun owners. All that mess is pure BS fueled by the anti gun people, low life's who are looking to get paid and the attorneys who make a living off of it. There are over 10 million 870's out there and every one of them as safe as the first one made. This mess started because some idiot claimed he was hunting and leaned his loaded 870 against his truck with the safety on and it fell and went off. He is a liar. Remington and independent testing companies could not replicate the incident as he claimed it happened nor could they even make an 870 discharge unless the trigger was pulled with the safety off. Nor can anyone else.

They only file these law suites as nuisance suites hoping that after awhile they be offered a settlement to go away as the respondents legal fees to defend this mess would be more then the nuisance settlement. Insurance companies bring it on themselves by offering to settle these nuisance suits.

This mess will continue until we get responsible tort reform in this country. Of course this would have to be done with a new law that would have to be passed by our so called representatives, of which most are attorneys. Fat chance of that.

I hate to say but with the exception of my Remington 1100 I am stuck right dab in the 1950's. I have three J C Higgins model 20 12 gauges, a Stevens side by side double barrel, an Ithaca 16 gauge and the Winchester .410 single shot my pops bought me when a 67 International Scout was new and a cool car! I have three model 20's because I have never felt a smother action on a shotgun and I wanted my boys to have one too. God knows those Mossbergs are strong and reliable but not very smooth!