Leaving the CZ Club: Loose barrels are "Normal"

sigarms228 said:

...I was really turned off by the fact that 75B supposedly comes with snap caps to use for dry firing because the the firing pin retaining pin from the factory is so cheap. ...

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The fact? Don't believe every uninformed thing you read on the internet.

Just what I was going to say.

The Sphinx pistols are as finely tuned as a Rolex, excellent guns.

Two points on the OP's issue:
Did the CZ folks give any indication of what ammunition they used in their test? Not all guns shoot all ammunition with equal success.

Second, if the OP wants to stay with the CZ75 design, and doesn't want to break the bank 'upgrading' to a Sphinx or other boutique brand, I'd suggest the Tanfoglio Witness as an alternative. The ones I have owned and handled have all been properly fitted and finished, and the tests on several models done by the NRA several years back showed excellent accuracy. As for the infamous surly customer service from EAA, if there's nothing wrong with the gun, you don't have to deal with them.

My 75B is super accurate more then any other 9mm I've fired having said that
a bad one can slip through, I would have demanded they repair or replace.
I have two CZ pistols and three rifles all have been flawless and accurate.

sigarms228 said:

I was really turned off by the fact that 75B supposedly comes with snap caps to use for dry firing because the the firing pin retaining pin from the factory is so cheap.

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I have dry fired my CZs tens of thousands of times and have never had to replace a firing pin retaining pin or firing pin.

But then again, there's a small spares kit in my field bag that has among other things a firing pin and firing pin retaining pin and I've been known to drop kick magazines into dumpster... so... FWIW, parts break. On everything.

sigarms228 said:

You might want to look into the new Sphinx line - reports are these are extremely well built (no MIM parts and hand fitting) and accurate right out of the box. Yeah they cost more but incredible pistols and may be my next.

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That doesn't even make a lick of sense... the internet tells you that over time a 10 cent roll pin may break, so go ahead and buy a gun that costs twice as much?

sigarms228 said:

...I was really turned off by the fact that 75B supposedly comes with snap caps to use for dry firing because the the firing pin retaining pin from the factory is so cheap. ...

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If it's a fact then is isn't supposed, and if it's supposed it may not be a fact. Regardless of either, there is no evidence to support the possible inclusion of snap caps because of some weakness in a pin, they might just care about their customer (heaven forbid).

OP,
I have no dog in this fight but thought I would comment and ask a few questions. From your writeup it sounds like you are a skilled and experienced shooter so I don't think it's worth pursuing the 'most can't shoot as well as they state' path.
But it wasn't clear from your post(s) and thus should ask:
How many rounds have you put through the gun? I.e. has the gun 'settled in' and have you adjusted to it. I am not a particularly good shot and with less experience than yourself. Nonetheless I have found significant variance in my exhibited skills with different gun makers/models. In time and in most cases I can adjust and come to terms with the firearm. Other times, it just doesn't work for me even when a friend test-fires it and proves it to be accurate.
BTW, has any other qualified shooter fired it? Same results?
And have you shot it with a variety of manufactured rounds (and perhaps different home reloaded rounds)? Could there be a missed 'sweet spot' for the gun based on ammo type?
It does sound odd that there is a bunch of slop in the barrel while in lockup but as noted the CZ is not a target gun. Nonetheless, from what I know from CZ's (which is limited) one of the reasons for their fame is in their accuracy (as well as soft shooting/heavy mass and good ergos).
GL,
B

I don't own any CZs and probably never will. I was really turned off by the fact that 75B supposedly comes with snap caps to use for dry firing because the the firing pin retaining pin from the factory is so cheap.

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Same reason I don't own any Sigs. Apparently the Cohen / No-German Sigs are so cheaply made that they require special low power ammo or the slide could come off and put your eye out.

It sure is a shame to make decisions based on misinformation.

I hope the OP gets a good price when he trades or sells and finds something he likes. I wish he could get access to another CZ 75 and swap barrels and slides, etc., and see what the problem most likely is, a barrel issue, a slide issue, or something else.

p.s. You all know I am joking about Sig, right? I hope that the post about CZ's shipping with snap caps was a joke as well.

All 3 of my CZs have loose barrels, a few thousands that I can feel while in battery. They all shoot great too

Groups are always measured center to center, just an fyi.

Send my dealer your CZ and I'll send yours my perfect p220. I'll get that junker working as good as my other CZs.

I've been wanting a stainless one for a while now...

Boricua,

Just a couple of things. It seems out of character for you to "Leave the CZ Club..." based on the results of tests with one gun. The sample size of one gun is meaningless. It also seems a bit melodramatic to announce that you are "Leaving the CZ Club" as if you were an experienced founding member with titles and decorations instead of a normal fella who bought their first CZ75 and was disappointed.

It also seems unlike you to disregard and write off the many opinions of folks, here and on many other forums, who have had very good experiences with CZ's with many type guns from that maker.

I'm wondering if it would not have been a better method to have reported the issue you are having with this one gun, on this and other forums, and asked for the experience and opinions of others.

Two:
From the information you posted it appears that the guns are tested at the factory off a bench by hand and not from a ransom rest. Thus the 4" group at 25 meters with 3 shots quite close and 2 slight flyers is not bad for a test group and likely within their spec. It would be within spec for most production guns. I did not see what ammo type or weight bullet they used in their test.

Three:
I did not see you say how many rounds you shot through your gun at 15 meters. How many outings you had with it. Neither did I see what ammo you shot. This information could help us form a more solid opinion.

You could post pics of a couple of those targets and that could clear things up some.

Good luck.

tipoc

CZ is the greatest handgun manufacturer in the world, with customer service equally good and beyond all others in terms of what is offered.

I'd call them back and ask for a supervisor. They WILL make it right for you, CZ comes out on top.

boricua9mm said:

Looks like the CZ apologists have shown up!

LOL!

If 4inches at 25 meters from a bench vise is acceptable, then why buy a CZ? You can get the same performance from a Keltec.

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Nearly all CZ 75's have front end barrel shake...it's normal. And as you pointed out, there is very little slide slop with your CZ.
Barrel shake can be bad if it were a 1911. But CZ's lock-up differently and more securely at the breech since they don't use a barrel links like 1911's.
Most people rework the triggers which greatly improves accuracy. Ammo selection makes a difference too.
Canjun Gun Works specialize in CZ's if you want to make it the best it can be.

Amazing... you send the gun back to the manufacturer and they say it is within spec, even tho it shoots 3.77" groups. Wow.

I would trade it in for a Hi-Power, you will get the tight groups.

Best to you.

Combat Engineer said:

Amazing... you send the gun back to the manufacturer and they say it is within spec, even tho it shoots 3.77" groups. Wow.

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A 3.77" groupat 25 meters is 82 feet or 27 yards is not bad, particularly if not shot from a rest (like a Ransom Rest.) The original poster talked about a much bigger (8'-10') group at a bit more than half that distance (15 yards = 45 feet), which doesn't make sense unless it's a SHOOTER issue. Vertical stringing, which was mentioned, is often (almost always) a shooter issue -- and given the CZ lockeup design, not likely to be due to the gun. (As jmr40 noted, much earlier, the gun has been shown to do better.)

Not addressed: AMMO. CZ uses Sellier & Bellot 124 gr. The OP didn't mention the ammo used. (I had a Beretta 96 once that would only shoot well with certain brands of ammo; it loved Fiocchi, and despised most other brands. I don't hand load.) I would try different ammo, if that hasn't already been done.

To the OP: do others shooting the gun have the same results? It sometimes takes me a while to get into step with a new gun; I have a friend who can drive tacks with any gun capable of that sort of precision, so I generally get him to shoot a new-to-me gun early on. His technique is awesome; mine take practice and work, and still isn't awesome. If a gun is giving me problems and he can't get it to shoot well, I quit trying -- and sell it or trade it.

If others don't have the same problem, it may be one of those quirky things that some guns and some people just don't FIT together well -- and neither is to blame...

.

Not sure about CZ handguns, but the test-firing and resulting targets for their rifles are FOR FUNCTION ONLY. ONLY. The test target is provided as proof of function, not as a test of accuracy. CZ has stated that clearly a number of times, and customer shooting results are usually a good bit better than the test target results. Again, not sure about the handguns.

I had 2 CZ's, one new and one used that weren't right before I found a good one, it can happen with any production made firearm.

Is there any way that you could have a local gunsmith test fire this gun in a Ransom Rest? Then you would have airtight test results to pursue CZ-USA to get a fair resolution on this gun.

25 meters is 82 feet. Center to center is usually a better measurement standard, but if the gun is shooting a 4" group at 82' and the regression is linear, that would mean a 2" group at 41' and a 1" group at 20.5'. Essentially the gun is shooting a 1" group at 7 yards.

I think a mass produced combat gun capable of 1" groups at 7 yards (21') is way past acceptable.

From I6Turbo:

Not sure about CZ handguns, but the test-firing and resulting targets for their rifles are FOR FUNCTION ONLY. ONLY. The test target is provided as proof of function, not as a test of accuracy.

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I think this is also true.

Again the test target shown for this gun in the pics on page one and in the video showing the 4" group at 27 yards (25 meters) shot off a bench is a good group. It's likely that with select ammo the gun could do better.

It would help me see the issue Boricua raises better if I knew how many rounds he fired at 15 yards, what type ammo, and how many outings he had with the gun.

Boricua stated the the gun produced 8-10" groups at 15 yards off hand. He thought this was wrong, sent the gun into CZ, CZ returned it saying they found nothing wrong and apparently the gun did the same again.

I have no reason to doubt Boricua's account, but more info might help to understand the issue.

tipoc

My experience with my single CZ, a CZ-85 Combat, is that it gives much better accuracy when shooting Hornady HAP .356" jacketed bullets then it does with either MBC .356" lead or Berry's .356" plated bullets. Measurably better -- at least one third better that the lead or plated loads. Having written that I must explain that I have not shot it extensively since I got it late in 2014, only six times with a total of seven distinct loadings. Also, all of the loads that I have shot in it have been near the bottom of the recommended loading ranges. Things could change when I pump up the velocity.

FWIW, my factory five shot bullet hit plot dispersion was 38.8mm (1.52"), measured center to center, at 25m. It too had three rounds very close together and two apart from the centered three. I wiggled my barrel with an empty case in the chamber and had just a little movement and could hear no noise. Nothing like what you demonstrated on your video. (Not that my not hearing anything means anything if you know you know what I mean.)

I suggest, as did other responders, that you try different commercial and reloaded ammunition to get more information on the gun's overall capability. If you can't find any acceptable loads I urge you recontact CZ USA and speak to a supervisor. I do not think your gun is a worthy product of CZ.

You have one good looking gun there. I hope you get it shooting to your satisfaction.

sigarms228 said:

...I was really turned off by the fact that 75B supposedly comes with snap caps to use for dry firing because the the firing pin retaining pin from the factory is so cheap. ...

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Early 75B guns were shipped with snap caps. Cheap ones at that. Every now and then someone broke the firing pin retention roll pin. I used to scoff at folks who talked about that, until I broke one in a new CZ-40B, dry firing. Before that I had dry-fired several CZ-75Bs thousands of times without a problem. I became a believer. Luckiy, my nearby hardware store had a suitable pin, which was about $.50, and I fixed it myself.

CZ later doubled that retention roll pin (putting one inside the first pin. I never heard of pins breaking after they doubled the pins. (Perhaps they did, because later still, they went to a solid pin, and that I think, is now standard practice.) Solid pins often have to be "staked" to keep them in place -- roll pins don't -- so the solid pins are a different kind of aggravation.

Using a pin to retain the firing pin makes economic/production sense, as it removes some intricate machining from the manufacturing process. Cutting the slide to accept a firing pin stop, and creating the stop was a clearly a costly process -- and some of the CZ-pattern guns competing with CZ (called "Clones" even though they aren't clones) use retention pins, and some use firing pin stops. (The Sphinx SDP uses a solid pin, rather than a firing pin stop -- and that is a very well-engineered gun!)

Stuff happens with design changes. Even SIG has had its problems when they do something different.

I have had one experience with CZs, and it surprised even me. I've always been a 1911 or Browning guy, and my 1911s are relatively high-end. I've handled CZs in the stores and I like the way they fit my hand. Based on that fit and my curiosity about the slide/frame fit among other things, I bought a CZ 75 Compact.

I think it's the best bang for the buck there is! It's roughly half the price of a very nice 1911, mine is supremely accurate and it has never failed to function! It's a service pistol, not a target pistol... the trigger is exactly that - a service trigger. It can be made better than it is when delivered if that's what you desire. What the CZ is, is a great bargain. The machining looks just fine and it is a well-proven design. I think the factory sights kind of suck and I don't really like the poly finish all that much, but it is certainly applied well and appears to hold up just fine.

There's not a lot more you can ask for the price. I'm about to buy the full size 75 to go with my Compact and I'll let the forum know if there's a barrel issue... I doubt there will be. It seems a lot less "finicky" than a 1911 and mine has never faltered with any kind of hand load I've tried. For the OP, I'd say that if the factory says your gun is in spec and you don't like it (or they don't make it right for you), sell it and spend more money on something else. I'm not trying to tick anyone off - if you read all the reviews you can find before purchase, you'll see that most every review of that gun is pretty darned good, and most say it's a very good gun for the money spent.

If I were in the OP shoes, I would be trading it out. Be it real or perceived, if u don't feel it, move on.

Not sure about CZ handguns, but the test-firing and resulting targets for their rifles are FOR FUNCTION ONLY. ONLY. The test target is provided as proof of function, not as a test of accuracy.

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I've seen photos of them doing the test fire -- they don't use a Ransom Rest. As others have noted, it's really a function test, not an accuracy test. And as the day goes on, I'm sure the shooter isn't as accurate as he was earlier in the day.

If you have a CZ test target showing a good group at 25 meters (under 4" as in one of the examples above), the gun is very likely to do much better when you later do an accuracy test (rather than a function test).

I'll have to retract my earlier statement as more details come out. Sounds like the gun is doing just fine. A 4in group from a bench/bags isnt bad, you put that in a ransom rest and it will probably be 2in or under with some high quality ammo.

If you like the gun but fell the accuracy isn't to your standards I'd say get some better ammo to start with and if that's not enough than send it to CZC or CGW for a hand fitting bushing or barrel.

I'd say at least find or send it somewhere with a ransom rest and top notch ammo for real test before you get rid of it.