Leaving the CZ Club: Loose barrels are "Normal"

[boricua9mm]

Video for the Non-Readin' Types

I picked up a stainless CZ75B this year as a birthday gift. I wanted a soft shooting, all stainless steel 9mm which would serve purely as an enjoyable, beautiful target pistol. Without a doubt, the gun looked great, felt great in the hands, and had very soft recoil thanks to a low bore axis and the thin, light slide riding inside the frame rails. Unfortunately, the pistol did not live up to my expectations.

At 15 yards, I was getting 8-10" groups with noticeable vertical stringing to the extreme. I eventually found out that the barrel was loose in the slide when the pistol was in full lockup. I searched the web and found comments that the barrel should NOT exhibit any play when the gun is in full lockup. Unfortunately, my pistol had this condition, so I sent an RMA request to CZ USA.

To CZ's credit, they issued an RMA and a return shipping label via FedEx. This is nice because FedEx will pick up the handgun from your residence (for those of us who have to work during normal business hours M-F). I wish I could speak so kindly as to Ruger's response, but that's another topic. CZ USA received the pistol and called me immediately. I had missed the call, but I called back within 10 minutes.

I was informed by the Warranty Gunsmith that a little bit of play in the barrel is completely normal for the CZ design, and that the bushing and barrel were found to be "in spec." I laughed inside, but I was so let down that I could not even put it into words. I emailed them later that this seemed very odd to me; owning and shooting many brands over the past 20 years, none have had loose barrel lockup, and that it was known as a problem when it comes to handgun accuracy. I was informed via email again that this was normal for the CZ design, and that I would surely find the accuracy of my pistol to be peerless.

When it came back, I took a closer look at my test target only to find The Telltale Heart, a 5-shot grouping at 25 meters measuring 4.126" from edge to edge, or 3.771" taken center-to-center. What pushed the group out to this range was...drum roll...vertical stringing from a loose barrel lockup! Uninspiring to say the least, especially for a pistol that is supposed to be accurate beyond reproach.

There is a lot of love here for the CZ 75B and I understand why. This is just a heads-up for those of you that may be looking to get one and are expecting it to be as accurate as its reputation would lead you to expect. Make sure you check for a tight barrel lockup when in full battery, or you might be up the creek when you find it doesn't meet your expectations.

Such a shame, it was such a beautiful gun!

Stay Safe. Shop Smart.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

Wow your right the isn't the norm for CZ customer service, I would call back and ask to talk to someone higher up as that group is not acceptable.

I had to send my CZ back to the factory because of some barrel issues/pitting mostly likely caused by me and they installed a new barrel and sent it right back.

 

[tcj]

That's unreal from the factory.

 

[boricua9mm]

I get the feeling that since these guns have the frame, slide and barrel all serialized and matched, that they didn't want to give me a mismatched barrel replacement, nor did they want to eat the crow and send me a new pistol.

Maybe CZ USA is an unaffiliated, partner company purchasing and reselling these guns from CZ overseas, and as a result, they didn't want to take the loss and do the dance with the Czechs?

I think that either too much metal was removed from the Browning style barrel lugs, or that the bushing was egged out beyond the specifications for the design.

The sad thing is that they blew smoke up my keister. I don't know if they can ever earn my business back. I'm guessing I can expect the same from Dan Wesson customer Service. If I ever buy another 1911, I guess it will have to be a Les Baer with thin bluing!

 

[Pilot]

I would call CZ back and ask to speak to a supervisor, and try to get them to either fix it, or give you a new gun. They are typically very good about customer service. That being said, I believe those test targets are NOT shot in a Ransom Rest, but offhand by a tech at CZ. Still it should be capable of a bit better accuracy, even though it is a "service" pistol, and not a target rig.

 

[Ex]

That's surprising and disappointing. While I don't personally own a CZ, I never heard anything but good about them. I too, would find that amount of slide to barrel tolerance annoying to say the least. 1911s, Glocks, etc have nowhere near that slop. Slop it is... can't call a sheep a cow and expect it to be right just because you say it's so.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[bannockburn]

boricua9mm

Sorry to hear both that you're getting sub-standard accuracy and that this is considered by CZ to be "in spec". Hope you get things sorted out with the barrel situation as it one fine looking gun, especially with those grips.

 

[Zerodefect]

What's the deal with the target that has no holes in it?

First bad thing I've ever heard about a CZ.

 

[boricua9mm]

Here is a discussion of CZ's testing setup:http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=33023.0

It's the internet. I have no idea if this is legit or not. If it is to be taken as factual, then they are bench rested, not fired from a Ransom Rest.

In any event, we are looking at bench rested results that congruent to my own personal results with a G26 offhand. Uninspiring might be putting it lightly...

 

[joem1945]

My CZ 75 is tight and shoots better than I can. But It's .40 S&W cal.

 

[Ed Ames]

I'm confused.

Your complaint was a 20-25cm (8-10") group at 15m. The test target shows a 10cm (4") group at 25 meters. In other words the test target is showing half the spread at nearly twice the distance. At 15m the gun, per the test target, is good for 6-7cm (call it 3") groups. Which, to be honest, is as good or better than most factory handguns and better than most shooters.

Maybe I am just jaded, but I think 4" 25m groups are perfectly acceptable for a factory pistol, even if the groups show signs that with additional fitting the pistol could do better. There are usually downsides to fitting parts down to the Nth degree and even if there aren't, it is extra labor I don't consider normal to a basic factory pistol.

It sounds like you identified your CZ as a candidate for a tighter barrel fitting job, but expected CZ to do a match fitting on a non-match gun for free. When they said no, the gun meets specs already, you got upset. Am I misinterpreting? A gun owner than wants the extra edge of perfect fitting beyond what the factory will do should take their gun to a smith who can hand fit the barrel but you chose to sell and be unhappy with CZ instead. That is a valid life choice but I don't see why we would share your unhappiness.

I spend enough time watching people at shooting ranges to know that most people who claim to shoot better than 4" groups at even 15 yards are liars. Not all, but most. I don't have a problem with a manufacturer saying that 4" groups at 25 yards is in spec for a service pistol that is not being represented as match grade.

 

[I6turbo]

I've acquired 16 CZs plus a Kadet Kit since early 2012. Of these, I had a 550 FS that came to me with a 3-position safety that didn't work correctly -- I thought it was actually unsafe due to the fact that it had a false detent that would make you think it was in the safe position when it wasn't actually. CZ sent a call tag, took the gun back, one of their smiths checked it out, claimed it was normal, and sent it back to me. I called that smith and he was downright ugly when I told him that the gun wasn't safe and I was confident that it shouldn't work the way it does. (Aside from knowing based upon common sense that it wasn't right, I have another 550 that works normally, not the way that one did.) It took a bit of effort but I contacted the head gunsmith and told him the story. He sent another call tag, took the gun and worked on it himself (he said) and it came back working perfectly.

IF you have a gun that you are confident has an issue, I suggest you don't give up too easily just because one gunsmith didn't agree with you. That said, your results don't sound too bad, depending upon the ammo and your shooting expertise (about which I know nothing).
EDIT regarding the "don't sound too bad" part: I just re-read and noticed that the test target is 3.7", not actual shooting. If the gun won't in fact shoot better than what you are getting with it, I would not be satisfied.

 

[boricua9mm]

Your complaint was a 20-25cm (8-10") group at 15m. The test target shows a 10cm (4") group at 25 meters. In other words the test target is showing half the spread at nearly twice the distance. At 15m the gun, per the test target, is good for 6-7cm (call it 3") groups. Which, to be honest, is as good or better than most factory handguns and better than most shooters.

Sorry, Ed, but you may have to speak more succinctly for me to understand exactly what it is that you are trying to convey. Nonetheless, I will reard between the lines and address them in kind.

Is the underlying implication that I am an inexperienced, poor shot? Are you implying that if CZ can shoot 3.7" from the factory at 25 meters from a bench rest, then I should be happy with an average of 8-10" at 15 yards when fired offhand? In either case, I will defer you to my last post, in which it is said that CZ test targets are fired from a BENCH REST IN THE SEATED POSITION in a controlled environment at 25 meters. For the past 20 years I have never shot handguns from a bench rest or ransom rest, and I have assumed that the majority of the membership here typically fire their handguns in similar conditions as myself. Apples to oranges? Maybe, but considering that I have taken three completely different firearms to task at the same range under the same conditions, with 30 years of overall shooting experience under my belt, the "You're a Crummy Shot" evaluation just never struck a chord.

Perhaps it's the assumption of "I've never read anything from this poster, he must be a new kid on the block with an axe to grind," to which I would simply point out my join date and encourage a search of my post history.

I am getting vertical dispersion that opens groups up to 8-10 inches, while, in the same range trip, my SIG P239 9mm and my Glock 19 have readily produced offhand. Something is definitely wrong here. A barrel swinging up and down, and making clicking noises as it does so (see video), is not helping the situation one iota.

I would then defer to exhibit B, the Test Target, which shows vertical dispersion of shots for handgun whose test targets usually print in the neighborhood of 2 inches. Forgive me if I am assuming that you have done your homework on that front. I have, and this Test Target is definitely a statistical outlier, and not in the good sense of the word.

I can reach into mt safe and grab any handgun, plop it on a bench rest, and it would produce groups markedly lower than 3" at 15 yards. You'll need to help me understand you on that one as well...

 

[jmr40]

Short version.

While you may have shot 8-10" groups at 15 yards, CZ shot the same gun and got 4" groups at 25 yards.

That pretty well proves the gun is capable of acceptable accuracy and is in spec. CZ isn't interested in the shooters skill only what the gun is capable of.

 

[CNobbe]

Agreed. Most guns have a little play between the barrel and slide...heck a Wilson 92G I looked at today even had some.

 

[Ed Ames]

Is the underlying implication that I am an inexperienced, poor shot? Are you implying that if CZ can shoot 3.7" from the factory at 25 meters from a bench rest, then I should be happy with an average of 8-10" at 15 yards when fired offhand?

Not necessarily inexperienced, nor necessarily a "poor shot" in general, but it seems you have a CZ that has been demonstrated capable of 3" groups at 15 yards and when you shoot it you get 8-10" groups at the same distance. The fundamental precision of the gun doesn't change whether fired off hand or from a bench, so the variables are you and your choice of ammo.

I have encountered guns that I simply couldn't shoot as well as others. In my case the problem is usually the sights and I have replaced factory sights on more than a few handguns. I have a pet peeve about sights that look like partrige signts but have dots that don't line up when you hold a partrige sight picture. Depending on lighting conditions I switch sight pictures between outline and dots, which can result in what looks like vertical stringing. You may have some other issue. E. g. the CZ has a relatively long trigger reach which causes problems for some shooters.

 

[boricua9mm]

Looks like the CZ apologists have shown up!

LOL!

If 4inches at 25 meters from a bench vise is acceptable, then why buy a CZ? You can get the same performance from a Keltec.

 

[boricua9mm]

Not necessarily inexperienced, nor necessarily a "poor shot" in general, but it seems you have a CZ that has been demonstrated capable of 3" groups at 15 yards and when you shoot it you get 8-10" groups at the same distance. There is no reason the fundamental precision of the gun would change whether fired off hand or from a bench, so the variables are you and your choice of ammo.

Please take a minute to review the thread. In fact, I would encourage everyone to take a second and actually read the posts in this thread.

Your numbers, and grasp of the concepts of accuracy testing talked about here, are completely screwed up.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

What's the deal with the target that has no holes in it?

There are programs out there that you can feed a scanned image to and will compute group sizes and other information automatically.


If you're going to retain the information for loading (or legal) purposes, it's much more compact than a paper target with holes punched through.

 

[Ed Ames]

Please take a minute to review the thread. In fact, I would encourage everyone to take a second and actually read the posts in this thread.

Your numbers, and grasp of the concepts of accuracy testing talked about here, are completely screwed up.

I did. My numbers are good. I'm interpolating from 97mm at 25 meters to 3" at 15 yards, which is plenty close enough for this sort of thread. My grasp of precision (measure of dispersal from where the gun is pointed) and the less relevant in this context accuracy (measure of dispersal between what you wanted to hit and where you were hitting) is again fine for the purposes of this conversation. My knowledge of testing methods? Again, I'm not the guy who seems to think bench resting changes the precision of a firearm, and I'm not the guy who measured outside to outside instead of center to center with his calipers, so I'm good.

What doesn't seem good is getting upset at CZ for what you have described in this thread.

 

[Thermactor]

Unsurprising to say the least.
CZs aren't crafted and forged by the hands of God after all.
Who would have thought it?

This is their factory testing setup! The hammer is there, it's just missing a sickle.

They're from a former Communist Soviet client state.
That test sheet is hilarious. "Is minute of imperialist, is good gun! You buy!"
Hah!

Reminds me of the old Simpsons "Mr Plow" episode.
Crazy Vaclav: "She'll go 300 hectares on a single tank of kerosene."
Homer: "What country is this car from?"
Crazy Vaclav: "It no longer exists, but take her for a test drive, and you'll agree. Zagreb ebnen zlotik diev."
Cravy Vaclav: "Put it in H!"

 

[sirgilligan]

I just got my CZ 85B and my son's CZ 75B out of the safe. Mine has a target and his doesn't. 63 is the dispersion area on mine.

I shook them both hard, no rattles, not a sound.

Do you have a friend near by that has a CZ 75B so that you could swap barrels and see if you can learn anything?

I have had good experiences with CZ USA and I consider one of their people a friend, and got to meet him at the NRA convention.

Now, I agree, you shouldn't have to do anything more than what you have done already, but it seems that you are going to have to diagnose this a bit more.

Surely someone near you has one, compare them, shake them both, take the barrels out and examine them, swap the barrels, does the rattle follow the barrel... stuff like that.

p.s. Was the gun brand spanking new?

p.s.s. I just watched your video. If I take my son's CZ 75 B and wiggle the barrel with my thumb in the fashion you did, I get the same sound, unless, with my other hand I grasp the slide closer to the muzzle and hold the slide tight against the frame, then there is no sound and no detectable movement of the barrel. One of the two other brands you mention as shooting better, I wouldn't own anything they make, I had three, two of which were lemons. My point is, there are plenty of manufacturers and models to try and I won't go back to that one until I have tried all the rest. I understand. I do love my CZ and will buy others, you will buy one of the brands you mentioned or something different, its all good. But I do think I would get it diagnosed and press CZ to fix it.

 

[CNobbe]

It's possible for any manufacturer to turn out something less than perfect from time to time. It is rare to hear of a CZ with an issue out of the factory, I've owned several, never had an accuracy issue but thankfully there are tons of other guns out there.

 

[Orion8472]

Not sure how "normal" a "loose barrel" is for a CZ,. . . or even what is considered a "loose barrel",. . . . but my SP-01 barrel is rock solid.

 

[sigarms228]

That's too bad boricua9mm as it is a beautiful pistol but the service you got from CZ and the quality of your particular CZ75B is crap based on your description of barrel fitting problem.

I don't own any CZs and probably never will. I was really turned off by the fact that 75B supposedly comes with snap caps to use for dry firing because the the firing pin retaining pin from the factory is so cheap.

You might want to look into the new Sphinx line - reports are these are extremely well built (no MIM parts and hand fitting) and accurate right out of the box. Yeah they cost more but incredible pistols and may be my next. The all steel duotone looks sweet.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4660025083 --- review

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/jeremy-s/sphinx_vs_cz/ --- check out astounding accuracy in this review

https://www.preppergunshop.com/index.php/sphinx-sdp-compact-alpha-9mm-3-75-duotone-15rd.html --- where to purchase

https://www.preppergunshop.com/index.php/sphinx-sdp-compact-alpha-9mm-3-75-black-15rd.html

Hope you have better luck maybe escalating with CZ.