horsemen61
Member
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2011
- Messages
- 6,773
Ok guys I just bought my first set of Lyman dies and I have never used an M die so please do tell how you use it and if you like it the caliber is 9mm
New to the M die please explain how it works
- Thread starter horsemen61
- Start date
- Status
nettlle
Contributing Member
I screw the stem down until there is enough bell so no lead or coating is scraped off the bullet. It's an excellent die and I like mine.
ReloaderFred
Member
The M Die has a two step case mouth expander. The smaller diameter sets the proper neck size for good bullet tension for the caliber, and the larger diameter is for belling the case mouth to accept the bullet. They are especially useful for loading cast bullets, but work equally well with jacketed and plated bullets. They are my favorite die for handgun rounds.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Hope this helps.
Fred
The second step (Larger diameter) isn't the standard "bell" you are used to. It is straight and expands the case wall enough to accept a bullet, but the case wall remains straight and true, which is much better than the rounded "flare" or "bell" used in standard dies for so long. Redding and now RCBS are now copying the technique and incorporating it into their standard dies. Patent must have run out.
Mauser69
Member
Strait-Wall Expander Dies all Same IMHO
As far as I can tell, there is no real-world difference in the expander plug performance in any standard straight-wall pistol die set - no mater what brand. Lyman "M" dies are just a designation given to confuse a new reloader and maybe get them to buy the Lyman dies over a competitor. I like my Lyman dies, but the expander is nothing special.
There may or may not be a longer straight-sided 2nd step in the Lyman dies than others, but so what? Who in the world wants to bell the mouth of a case so far down that it would make a difference? Maybe someone does, but sure not me. I have Lyman dies from the 70s and Lee dies from the 80s, and they both perform exactly the same when it comes to expanding/belling the case mouths. I bell only the absolute minimum to allow a plain lead bullet to sit on the case and then get pushed home without shaving. There is zero difference when looking at an expanded case from my Lyman or Lee dies.
As far as I can tell, there is no real-world difference in the expander plug performance in any standard straight-wall pistol die set - no mater what brand. Lyman "M" dies are just a designation given to confuse a new reloader and maybe get them to buy the Lyman dies over a competitor. I like my Lyman dies, but the expander is nothing special.
There may or may not be a longer straight-sided 2nd step in the Lyman dies than others, but so what? Who in the world wants to bell the mouth of a case so far down that it would make a difference? Maybe someone does, but sure not me. I have Lyman dies from the 70s and Lee dies from the 80s, and they both perform exactly the same when it comes to expanding/belling the case mouths. I bell only the absolute minimum to allow a plain lead bullet to sit on the case and then get pushed home without shaving. There is zero difference when looking at an expanded case from my Lyman or Lee dies.
Skinnedknuckles
Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2011
- Messages
- 249
NOE Bullet Moulds http://noebulletmolds.com/ also has a version of the M-die expander, including some that work in the Lee Powder Through die http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=91&osCsid=18ua9i67nej0cumgcs6s5sjkf6. The part number system is a little confusing, and I would recommend calling them and telling them exactly what you need when placing your order. Great folks and great customer service. I've switched over for 9mm, and .38/.357 as they are great with plated bullets.
Mauser69
Member
By the way, back in the 70s, Lyman wasn't playing nomenclature games - they simply called it a two-step expander die, but their diagram looks exactly the same as what they now show for the "M" die. I suspect the distinction of the special "M" die came around when they started selling them for bottleneck cartridges too - there never has been anything special for pistol cartridges.
Out of curiosity, I did just pull the expander plug out of both a Lyman .357 and Lee .357 die, and the two-step shape is IDENTICAL - the second step is even the same height.
Out of curiosity, I did just pull the expander plug out of both a Lyman .357 and Lee .357 die, and the two-step shape is IDENTICAL - the second step is even the same height.
Jim Watson
Member
I am looking at the M type "powder funnel" the MR Bullet Feeder uses in a Dillon.
I have a supply of round heeled .38 bullets that tend to topple over in the usual bugle mouth flare. The straight expansion of the M step would keep them lined up until they enter the seating die.
The M type is really neat for cast bullets in a rifle cartridge. Step expand the neck deep enough for the base band or gas check and the bullet lines up well.
I have a supply of round heeled .38 bullets that tend to topple over in the usual bugle mouth flare. The straight expansion of the M step would keep them lined up until they enter the seating die.
The M type is really neat for cast bullets in a rifle cartridge. Step expand the neck deep enough for the base band or gas check and the bullet lines up well.
ReloaderFred
Member
There is a world of difference between the Lyman M die expander and the older expanders from other companies. I've got dozens of handgun die sets to compare with, and the Lyman is different than all my other sets.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Hope this helps.
Fred
Mauser69
Member
You haven't seen enough expander plugs.
Longhorn 76
Member
M dies are the only way to go with soft lead bullets.
Mauser69
Member
Here they are side by side. The Lyman expander is from a 40 year old set of dies, and the Lee expander is from a 30 year old set of dies.lol.
Got a pic of a new one?
As you can see, they both have a two step expander, and the height of the 2nd step is virtually the same. I measured these with my calipers and you can see the results. The 2nd step on the Lee expander is slightly tapered, which may actually aid in holding a bullet and not shaving lead without undue belling that would be caused by having to ram the Lyman expander all the way past the top of the 2nd step. But as I said in my first reply, in actual usage, I find zero difference in the performance of each die set for proper expansion and minimal belling. One additional minor advantage of the Lee expander is that it CANNOT be shoved too far into the case (beyond the height of the 2nd step), thus accidentally destroying the case. This can be of benefit when changing the same dies over from .38 Spl to .357 Mag, especially for a new reloader who may not remember that the expander must be reset to a different height. Heck, I haven't been a new reloader for a long time, but I can remember doing that once or twice with the Lyman dies!
The Lyman expander is, and always has been good, but IMHO it is not anything special for pistol calibers. Lee has always had the same two step expander.
The M die IS a nice addition to standard bottleneck rifle die sets that only come with an internal expander plug in the resizing die if you want to load plain lead rifle bullets, so for rifle calibers, it is something special.
If you aren't seeing the difference between those two expanders, I don't even know where to begin to try to explain it.Mauser69 said:
Even a quick glance shows that they are different, not only in execution, but in design philosophy
Mauser69
Member
If you cannot see that the shape and size of the part of the plug that actually touches the inside of the case mouth is virtually identical, other than the very slight taper on the 2nd step of the Lee, then I don't even know where to begin to try to explain it.
Yeah, they are different colors. Yeah, one is a floating plug and one is not. Yeah, one is hollow for powder charging and one is not. Yeah, one has a longer bottom shank that is heavily tapered but does nothing for expansion. So what? NONE of that has a danged thing to do with how they actually shape the brass!
If you were offended, it certainly wasn't by intention on my part...Mauser69 said:
However, you have provided a starting point because you do see what we are referring to. You insist that they are the same and then you point out the difference that we are all referring to...BTW: great picture showing the clear difference between the expanders
That slight taper, as opposed to the Lyman's parallel side profiled section is what gives the case a completely different shape to accept bullets without the more common flaring/belling of other expanding dies
As posted, the Lee, and all other expanders for a long time, had a straight diameter start to the expander to "expand" the case and then they tapered or rolled away from center to "flare" the case bigger than bullet diameter to facilitate starting the bullet.
The M die had two steps, both of which are straight, or parallel to the case body, one to expand under bullet diameter and the second to expand ever so slightly over bullet diameter to facilitate seating, but being parallel, or straight, it tends to start the bullet straighter.
I have switched overwhelmingly to M die or Redding and RCBS new style expanders which copy the two step but parallel with no taper or roll M Die.
The M die had two steps, both of which are straight, or parallel to the case body, one to expand under bullet diameter and the second to expand ever so slightly over bullet diameter to facilitate seating, but being parallel, or straight, it tends to start the bullet straighter.
I have switched overwhelmingly to M die or Redding and RCBS new style expanders which copy the two step but parallel with no taper or roll M Die.
Skinnedknuckles
Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2011
- Messages
- 249
I'm a relative newbie and interested to see what expander plugs looked like 30 and 40 years ago. Until very recently, I've only used Lee equipment (plus the plugs from NOE) and within the last 4 years or so all the Lee expander plugs I've purchased either in die sets or as replacements were single diameter with a belling radius. I've attached pictures of the Lee 9mm plug with the NOE 38P plug and the Lee .38 Special plug with the NOE 30SP short plug. On the 9mm plug, the nose is .3535" and the step is .357". The last step is over .380 and serves as a stop. The same dimensions on the .38 plug are .356"/.360". The Lee expander diameter is the same as the NOE - .354" and .356" but with the radius instead of the setp.
From your pictures, it seems that Lee must have changed their plug at some point, perhaps causing the confusion.
Attachments
judgedelta
Member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2013
- Messages
- 687
Can a person get a M die "kit" of some sort with a die and multiple expander plugs, like the NOE? Or do you have to buy a separate M die for each caliber? Thanks.
You don't need to get a complete new die, but Lyman wouldn't sell me just the plug. They would only sell me the whole insert.
Funny thing is that I found that they had sent me two (2) of the same inserts. I called Lyman and they sent me just the correct plug...they didn't ask for the original plug back
Interestingly, I found that the inserts are a bit different between the .355/.357 ones and the .44/.45 ones. My plugs actually aren't interchangeable between small(er) and large(r) inserts
Funny thing is that I found that they had sent me two (2) of the same inserts. I called Lyman and they sent me just the correct plug...they didn't ask for the original plug back
Interestingly, I found that the inserts are a bit different between the .355/.357 ones and the .44/.45 ones. My plugs actually aren't interchangeable between small(er) and large(r) inserts
Jim Watson
Member
Buffalo Arms will make an M plug with any combination of diameters you order and threaded for your expander die body.
Mostly for BPCR but would work for any caliber you have.
Mostly for BPCR but would work for any caliber you have.
- Status
