Shotgun Questions

I don't get the feeling Oolong is really looking for a practical tool. Rather, an entertaining play toy that can convert money into noise at the cyclic rate.

I suppose we've all been there at some point......smile

Oolong said:

Couldn't all of the issues with possibly losing a hand like the ksg be reduced by using a barrel extension and wouldn't the likelihood be low anyway because the Utas pumps back like every other normal shotgun in history?

The reason I looked into it was because it's new, and I don't see a issue with investing in a design that needs a little work (like the entire country did with the ar15) to vote with my wallet as to what kind of guns I want more of in the future,

I personally don't see buying a old style pump gun as a good investment unless it's for less than 200 dollars used because shotguns are just muskets when it comes down to it.

I'm really looking for a good range toy as it'll keep my attention well enough for me to get good with it. But I'm on a patriotic kick lately and I saw the uts as having a lot of good features over the ksg but if it's not American owned as I previously read, screw it I'll get the dp12. I personally like hi cap shotguns and pumps like the Utas can shoot two lengths of shells, which made me ignore most mag fed semi autos.

But if semi auto shotguns are that much better I'll look into them. I don't own a gun currently but I've been using my grandfather's old rifles at a local range.

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This is just my opinion....

This issue is that the plastic breaks and the slide is so close to the end of the barrel.

If you add a barrel extension long enough, sure, it will reduce the chances. But, IMO, that takes away from what it is.

And I have to ask, anyone, how many plastic slides have broken on the well known proven shotguns that are out there now in the 100's of thousands made over decades?


In regards to the AR15, that's already a several decade old proven design. People weren't voting with their dollars on something that's had problems in effort to further develop it passed it infancy.


The Benelli is regarded as the most reliable semiauto. Contracts are awarded to those that have the product that meets their criteria and, secondly, are the low bidder. Not the other way around.

Well respected proven pumps can be had for under $200 used. Heck, the Maverick 88's can be bought new for just barely over $200 and it is American Made.



But if its what you want... buy it. I'm not saying its a dumb idea... who an I to say that? I just wanted to point out that its, both actually, have some issues that aren't worked out yet and it been a big contributing factor to some horrific injuries.



For me, I 1st bought a 12ga SxS coach gun for fun only. I have enough fun with it that I then bought a proven 12ga pump action to explore my interest.

Now, I'm looking at either a 2nd pump in 20ga or a semi auto just because I like semi autos better (more used to them) in general.



Buy 2 if you want!

DP-12 is 9.75 lbs empty. By the time you add optics, sling, and fill it up with ammo you will probably be over 12 lbs.

No thanks.

Oolong - if you want to purchase a range toy, go ahead.

I think the general feeling is that for your first firearm, you could purchase something that has a wider use and appeal. When the newness wears off of the tactical and cool shotgun, it may not hold its value.

Some of the other options mentioned have other uses and retain much of the original value if cared for properly. You never know, you may try hunting or shooting clays.

It's your money, the only opinion that counts is your own.

Swanee


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Scatterguns need optics? im no hunter, im not a cop or soldier, im just a guy who wants to shoot some shells through something cool and new and maybe break a plate or two.

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No they don't need optics. But I looked at the DP-12 and didn't see any sights at all. The DP-12s I see being used all seem to have optics of some type mounted.

I like the plain front bead on my 870. Old-fashioned, but works.

With the DP-12 you could always put some detachable iron sights on that long pic rail.

If the height of the rail wasn't so close to the same plane as the stock's comb, you might even sight down the groove in the center of that rail. Looks like it would be pretty tough to get your eye low enough though with the rail/stock comb geometry.

Shane in MT said:

DP-12 is 9.75 lbs empty. By the time you add optics, sling, and fill it up with ammo you will probably be over 12 lbs.

No thanks.

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If you are hiking or hunting or have it slung over your shoulder then weight is weight.
However if you shoulder the gun the bullpups are surprisingly easier than the weight suggests.
I took an 870 marine magnum (7.5 pound gun) and put it in a bullpup unlimited conversion kit that took it from 38.5" to about 28" (with a thick rubber pad.)
The shipping weight of the kit is 2 pounds 12 oz, but you also remove the original stock, pad, and long metal screw that holds it in place as well as the stock forend and I had to remove the extended magazine clamp as well subtracting from the total weight.
The kit adds around 2 more pounds, turning it into a 9+ pound gun, and I honestly found it easier to hold shouldered than the 7.5 stock gun.
I could pump it faster, shoot it well, it cut muzzle rise way down, and I found it to be a great setup. I could empty 6 rounds in less than 2 seconds hitting a paper plate sized target at 15-20 yards each shot. It got tons of interest at the range. I didn't get a chance to try it on clays but it pointed very quickly.
The effort it takes to hold the gun is significantly reduced. The heaviest part of the gun its action is close to your shoulder, and the weight of the barrel and loaded tube of ammunition is closer. The center of gravity was right at the pistol grip, so centered you could turn the gun sideways and hold it up with one hand.
I could hold it with one hand easily and even practiced shooting it that way shouldered as well as tucked under my arm a few times. While a normal 870 is so front heavy holding it with one hand is impractical, virtually all of the weight is forward of the grip.
I could hold the same 870 in the bullpup kit with one hand level without strain, and as a result would be free to open doors, use a phone, point it at a bad guy for extended periods of time, or anything else. Making it far more useful in my opinion than a standard configured shotgun for defensive use.


I however didn't recommend it because it shot low and I had to add front and rear sights of different heights on the rail and adjust how far apart they were to get the proper height adjustment. It then cracked at the kit pump after several hundred rounds. I had a Troy vertical grip that never came off and held rock solid on the plastic pump rail as it covers a lot of rail and is why I chose it, but the actual plastic of the kit broke separating the pump from the plastic that attaches to the action bars.
Fortunately I suffered no injuries but I could definitely see how the guy with the KSG shot his hand when his junk aftermarket grip came off, and was subsequently called an idiot on tons of forums. I no longer feel safe with that kit or that it is reliable, even though I liked the setup so much that I can't even go back to a standard pump configuration.

My point though was the bullpup layout makes the same or even more weight feel like less when shouldering or manipulating the weapon, and only more if you are simply carrying the weapon from point to point.
My 9+ pound 870 bullpup feels like it weighs half what the same gun does at 7.5 pounds in its stock configuration.

The DP12 is of even higher quality.

Oolong said

so i looked into the DP 12 and while it is a hunk of aluminum and has one more barrel than i need it's american owned and made and they happen to be working on a bullpup semi auto too, which i will buy depending on how well i like the DP 12.

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California law prohibits semi auto bullpups as illegal assault weapons, so the pump is my only option in a bullpup layout. If the semi auto is of similar quality it certainly would interest me.
However I also prefer tube fed shotguns because box magazines can deform plastic shells over months of sitting and cause them to jam. Great at the range when loading it fresh, but if you pick it up after months for defensive use you might have trouble with some crushed shells. Which is why I don't think the Saiga and Vepr are good defensive guns even when tuned and running reliable.

If I was going to use a box magazine fed shotgun defensively I would try some of the all brass shells and test them for reliability and load up my own rounds. They won't deform even sitting in the loaded magazine for years like plastic shells will. If they cycle reliably then that is what I would keep them loaded with at home.

I can see where the bullpup design brings the weapons balance closer to the user's center of gravity.

How does ejection work on those bullpups if you need to shoot from the weak-side?

Hey Oolong, don't think that a Mossberg isn't cool! Here is mine:



This is the military version currently in use by the USMC and US Army. It is the M590A1 and is basically bombproof and has been battle proven in front line combat for years. It has a capacity of nine rounds, and can even accept a bayonet. These are currently being used as we speak to blast open doors and kill terrorists in the Middle East. Oh, and you can get one for $500 brand new.

I don't know about you, but that's a lot cooler than some overcomplicated, unproven and often unreliable gimmick gun made specifically for the civilian market. Name me ONE police or military agency using a UTAS, KSG, or DP-12.

I can think of hundreds that use Mossberg and Remington pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns.

Cooldill said:

Hey Oolong, don't think that a Mossberg isn't cool! Here is mine:



This is the military version currently in use by the USMC and US Army. It is the M590A1 and is basically bombproof and has been battle proven in front line combat for years. It has a capacity of nine rounds, and can even accept a bayonet. These are currently being used as we speak to blast open doors and kill terrorists in the Middle East. Oh, and you can get one for $500 brand new.

I don't know about you, but that's a lot cooler than some overcomplicated, unproven and often unreliable gimmick gun made specifically for the civilian market. Name me ONE police or military agency using a UTAS, KSG, or DP-12.

I can think of hundreds that use Mossberg and Remington pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns.

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That is pretty cool.


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Oolong, the reason you're not getting the go ahead is because this is your first gun. If you already had a viable self defense weapon, then no one would argue with you. I imagine that there are members here who have one of those shotguns, or something equally ridiculous, but they're honest with themselves that it's a toy with zero practical application. Keeping that in mind, things like weight and reliability don't mean anything, so there's really nothing to even talk about. You buy it because it looks cool, and you don't need anyone to justify it for you because you're buying it simply because you like it and you don't need anyone to tell you what you like, right? It's like buying art or eating something bad for you. If you're going to splurge, no one is going to tell you how to waste your money or get fat; you already know how to do that.

The reason you're here though is because you're trying to justify something as practical that is not practical by any stretch of the imagination. It's a defensive weapon that isn't even reliable enough for hunting. Which again would be just fine if you weren't trying to make it your only weapon. You have to realize that all of us here believe an adult without a reliable defensive firearm is like a house without smoke alarms or a car without seat belts. No one is saying not to buy the UTAS if it makes you happy; we're just saying to wait until after you've bought and trained with something practical.

Buy yourself a used Glock 19, big boxes of cheap Blazer, and practice with it until you can put all 16 rounds into the A zone at ten yards. It won't take long. Also buy yourself a 50 round box of Federal HST 124 gr 9mm, which is enough to load all three mags for 20 bucks. Now you have a viable defensive firearm that you can also carry concealed should you get your CCW permit, which you should if you're 21. The Glock 19 will set you back about 3-4 bills depending on how new it is, and the ammo to get proficient with it probably another 1-2 hundred. So for five hundred bucks all your self defense needs are taken care of, and you can reward yourself with an UTAS afterwards.

If you just want a range toy, have at it. It is your money and time. I am curious, though: have you fired a 12 gauge before? They usually have "noticeable" recoil, and after 5 or 10 shots in quick succession you may start getting uncomfortable if you are recoil-sensitive or not used to getting bopped. I guess I am also wondering what you will do with it at the range? Making a big mess of a pistol target? Fun with slugs? I personally would get tired of either pretty quickly, but there is no accounting for taste.

How about a Saiga 12? Not US made tho. https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/shotguns/saiga-tactical-shotguns.html

Whatever's your cup of tea!

I will be interested to see what SKO manages to achieve with their innovative designs. Personally, I have more interest in their newer ideas than in a double-barreled repeater. Repeaters were developed to be made that way instead of being made double barreled, not in addition...

It will be interesting to see what sort of manufacturing quality they can consistently maintain, which is an acid test for new makers.

Few ladies know one gun from another. I had a visitor become a little freaked by an antique musket--so far as she knew, or cared to figure out, a gun was a gun.

this old school rem 870 12ga 2-3/4 chambered shotgun has been a house protection shotgun for the last 40 years and even tho never needed it has given peace of mind over the years. eastbank.

Some of these classic shotguns we are suggesting have bullpup conversions available for them. I know nothing about the conversions--how well they work.

Basic proven actions like Mossberg and Remington appear to lack the coolness factor of something modern (I had not given that part much thought). Their appearance can be changed.

In this picture, I like the top version because it looks like what I am accustomed to. Oolong does not--and for the same reason!

Whatever you go with, be smart and keep them properly secured.


Don't let random "ladies" into your closet........if you get my drift.

being left handed the ejection of the casings pose a problem for me with the bullpups. eastbank.

Oolong, once again you're trying to justify a choice that you know is wrong, and you're hoping that we'll say something to make you feel good about what you know to be a bad decision. Once again, you don't need our approval, but you should heed everyone's advice. We've all been in your shoes before.

As for resale value, a good quality shotgun is going to beat out any of the bullpups you're proposing every day of the week. Those bullpups are toys, not investments, and I think their reputation for unreliability will kill their resale value down the road. Ten years from now they're not going to look cool anymore. They'll be tossed aside with the hundreds of other bad ideas that have hit the market in the last century. I can't tell you how many "cutting edge" guns have come and gone just in the time that I've been into collecting.

As for a lady friend seeing it, there are so many problems with that hypothesis I don't know where to begin. First and foremost, why are you letting strangers rummage through your closet? Alternately, why are you looking for meaningful relationships with women who disapprove of guns? I always used my guns as a litmus test for people. If they want to go shooting with me then they is good people so to speak. If they turn their nose up at it, then they're not my kind of friends, much less the future mother of my children.

When I was in college, I kept an M14 in my closet. The few girls who saw it thought it was downright sexy. Long story short, it's more likely to help you than hurt you, and in the case it hurts you then she wasn't worth your time anyways.

So how about a compromise? Get one of those "grandpa shotguns" and dress it up. Put a telescoping stock on it, and give it a badass paint job. If you buy a Remington police 870 for six hundred, that gives you another six hundred to dress it up and still be in the same range as the UTAS.

I would not say Oolong is wrong so much as looking at cool-factor ahead of workable, proven tech. I don't think jams or malfs have any coolness.

The SKO shotguns are something of an unknown quantity. At least, they are unknown to me. Perhaps (and we have yet to see this) they will come up with a new classic.Perhaps when Oolong is old he will be advising others to stay with proven ideas like the SKO bullpup. LOL.