National Reciprocity for Concealed Carry Passes, Next Stop House

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This much is certain: concealed-carry reciprocity is a perfect fundraising vehicle for the NRA and other pro-gun groups, just as opposition to it is a perfect fundraising vehicle for the antigunners.

Maybe I'm being too cynical, but it seems to me that an open, unresolved issue serves the interests of all these lobbyists better than any resolution of it would be. I suspect that rank and file gun owners are being used. After all, flogging dead horses is how these lobbyists make their livings.

We're not going to see this (or any gun legislation) for a long time. The political forces are too closely matched, and, as I said, the Washington leaderships of both sides have a vested interest in keeping the gun issue alive, but unresolved.
 
I'm sorry, I have a CCW permit, but I'm not for this on Constitutional grounds. We're called the United "States" for a reason. The states should never have mandates from the federal government shoved down their throats, even if it's for causes I find valid. In that this legislation helps diminish the power of the states, I'm not for it.

This is like the federal government being able to tell local or state school boards what to teach or what books they should have. The states in the US aren't supposed to be identical to each other. Yes, the patchwork of reciprocity is frustrating, but having the US turn into one gigantic state that's synonymous with the federal government should be troubling to those of you who claim to have an allegiance to the Constitution.

The Federal Government should not shove mandates down our throat...that are not specified in the Constitution.

Keeping and bearing arms is in the Constitution so the Federal government has a duty to step in and force states to abide by it.

Think of it this way: a state does not have the right to outlaw some religions. It violates the First Amendment. So the Feds have the Constitutional authority to step in and make sure citizens can practice their religion.

Now smoking laws, seat belts, alcohol, marriage licenses... and anything else NOT mentioned in the Constitution (which is practically everything) should be left to the states. This is what the Tenth Amendment says. Unfortunately, the Federal Government thinks that it has the authority to dictate these things as well. This is where the problem comes in. The Tenth Amendment is not being respected.

The Tenth Amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
 
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We're not going to see this (or any gun legislation) for a long time. The political forces are too closely matched, and, as I said, the Washington leaderships of both sides have a vested interest in keeping the gun issue alive, but unresolved.

If it were such a pressing issue the supreme court would have settled a long time ago. No interest there either.

Presently there is a trend for less federal regulation, not more. This bill isn't going anywhere.
 
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I just can't picture New Jersey allowing me to visit my daughter with a "friend" on my hip even if it does pass.

New Jersey is famous for arresting you first and then figuring it all out later.
 
IMO....the NJSP and Trenton will do whatever necessary to prevent NR from coming here....as I understand it LE is against it.
 
The question is, why does the federal government allow state constitutions to exist? If state constitutions are going to have differing provisions on an individual's right to bear arms, which they do (see below), provisions that are almost never worded (or framed) the same as the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution, and rarely worded identically to other states' provisions, isn't it an inherent corruption of the 2nd amendment that the states pursue? And that the US Constitution and federal government allows?

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm

The answer is - and this is really important - the Bill of Rights is not a mandate of uniformity for the states. You may think it is, but it isn't. The founders were coming from the starting point of the Articles of Confederation, and they had many staunch political opponents in the form of the anti-federalists, people who valued states rights and were very much against the idea of centralized power in government. Madison drafted the Bill of Rights (including the 2nd amendment) initially as a conciliatory gesture to the states' rights loving anti-federalists in hopes that they wouldn't convene another constitutional convention, which might overturn the newly drafted US Constitution. (Many of his political allies thought the Bill of Rights were a waste of time! Thankfully, he didn't.)

State constitutions are certainly subordinate to the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, so why is it that we even have states? The answer is because there are cultural and regional differences between people who live in different parts of the country, and those differing peoples should live under a local or regional sovereignty that more closely reflects their values. (The antithesis of the British crown ruling the colonies from afar.) No, the states don't get to have their own 2nd amendment, per se, but their state constitution gets to interpret the 2nd amendment of the Constitution in accordance with the local values of the people. (At least in theory. Often state senators pursue agendas that aren't in accordance with local values.) And don't tell me, "There shouldn't be any interpretation." Everything is interpreted - or misinterpreted - by people, even the simplest of statements.

So yes, it's true that states often misinterpret the Constitution and the 2nd amendment by drafting laws that violate the fundamental principles listed in the Bill of Rights or the US Constitution. That's when the courts kick in and those laws are challenged on up to the federal level where they are subjected to constitutional scrutiny. The National Rifle Association has done a good job of pursuing these cases over the last 30 years.

This concept also applies to the 1st amendment. Pornography laws vary from state to state, though there are people, using the Bill of Rights as a pretext, who would like to tell North Dakota or Utah that they should have the same pornography laws as California...even though the populations in those states may have very different values on such things. And this brings us to the most effective tactic of those who pursue an agenda of centralized government: pitting the individual (and his rights) against the states. Centralized power addicts manipulate the individual into thinking the federal government (via the court) is his friend, that they are there to protect him against those mean old provincial thinkers at the state level. The federal legislature also does this, as in the passage of the 17th Amendment, ratified in 1913, which took the election of senators away from state legislatures and into the hands of individuals.

An individual's rights are profoundly important in the US, but problem with taking all power away from the state and putting it into the hands of individuals is that individuals can not stand up to a centralized federal authority gone crazy with power with the same effectiveness that a state can. And when the states' powers are completely gone, who will protect the individual from the feds? Think of it this way: the state is to a citizen what the labor union is to a 19th century coal miner. And yes, like labor unions, states can go in the wrong direction and do the wrong thing, but the founders tried to strike a balance...and keep the federal government at bay.

When all is said and done, the forced reciprocity legislation currently in Congress isn't the worst thing that could happen, since the armed citizen is also a formidable obstacle to an oppressive centralized government, but I won't support it on principle because it does erode the sovereignty of states. By itself, it isn't a bad thing, but in concert with all those other things well....
 
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Jim explains this very well, and I think what it boils down to is this statement and following question:

The Supreme court is supposed to be the power which can bring to heel a state's legislature if it does violate the expressed (interpreted) terms of the Constitution.

Is it the place of the federal Congress to try and discipline the states to follow (their interpretation of) the Constitution if Congressmen feel that the Court is not able or willing to do so?



This, of course brings up a whole flurry of additional debate points about the powers of the federal government, the expansion of the Commerce Clause to let the federal government regulate anything it wants, pragmatism vs. idealism, whether we're trying to close the barn door long after the horses have fled..., etc.
 
I'm driving from Pennsylvania to South Dakota with a shotgun and ammunition to hunt so I have to read up on all the states I'm traveling through so I don't violate their law?

Come on!! :what:

I'll agree that on certain issues states right should and must apply on others, NO.

Technically, FOPA applies on travel through states but you have to follow its guidelines--locked case, unloaded, etc. FOPA was passed on the basis of the commerce clause which allows Congress to regulate how states treat interstate travelers.
 
Right now there are only three states that do not issue carry permits to it's residents. They are New Jersey, Maryland and Hawaii.

However if you live in the right county, pay the high fees and jump through enough hoops in California, New York State and Massachusetts. It is possible to get a carry permit. (Rhode Island is said to be 50/50, Delaware has some strange requirements and Connecticut I'm not really up on). But basically you can get a carry permit in those states under the right conditions.

In the case of New Jersey, Maryland and Hawaii you cannot move to another county and get a carry permit like residents in California and New York State can. And you cannot move to another town and be able to get a carry permit like residents in Massachusetts can. You are out of luck in NJ, MD and HI unless you are famous, politically connected or get a job as an armed guard (and be only able to carry while on the job).

So what does someone living in those areas do?

Residents in New Jersey, Maryland and Hawaii need help as well as those who live in areas of California, New York State and Massachusetts that cannot get a carry permit because they live in the wrong county or town. (Or in the case of New York City...they are in the same boat as NJ,MD and HI). But then there is the matter of states rights and balancing that with the Second Amendment...

Why not make the reciprocity bill into a constitutional amendment instead...Why? Well already over 2/3's of the states already have shall issue and most of those already have some sort of reciprocity agreement with some other states so getting 2/3's of the states to vote for a constitutional amendment should be easy, and should satisfy the states rights argument because every state had a right to vote for the amendment.

What do you think?
 
Technically, FOPA applies on travel through states but you have to follow its guidelines--locked case, unloaded, etc. FOPA was passed on the basis of the commerce clause which allows Congress to regulate how states treat interstate travelers.

I KNOW!!! Its a hypothetical response to a post that the states should not be regulated by federal law.

Please read post #7.
 
I KNOW!!! Its a hypothetical response to a post that the states should not be regulated by federal law.

Please read post #7.
Sorry.. took it literally. As a matter of con law, state's rights went out with the civil war. Even the confederate constitution had a commerce clause and actually was more centralized in some ways than the US constitution was at the time. The 13th,14th, and 15th amendments explicitly place states under federal authority via congressional legislation when congress chooses to do so to enforce the provisions of the amendments. The commerce clause effectively covers much of the rest especially after the 1930's era supreme court's decisions starting with nlrb v Jones and Laughlin steel.
 
None. Too many Democrats. We have to wait and see after the 2018 election. So get out there and vote because we ain't done yet.

A common political campaign approach. "Sorry guys, we tried to support your interests. Just send more money so we can get an even greater majority and we will surely get it done next session."
 
Sorry.. took it literally. As a matter of con law, state's rights went out with the civil war. Even the confederate constitution had a commerce clause and actually was more centralized in some ways than the US constitution was at the time. The 13th,14th, and 15th amendments explicitly place states under federal authority via congressional legislation when congress chooses to do so to enforce the provisions of the amendments. The commerce clause effectively covers much of the rest especially after the 1930's era supreme court's decisions starting with nlrb v Jones and Laughlin steel.

Great information on the commerce clause. :)
 
A common political campaign approach. "Sorry guys, we tried to support your interests. Just send more money so we can get an even greater majority and we will surely get it done next session."

Come on, this 'resistance' by the Democrats voting en masse is unprecedented plus they are pulling every stinkin dirty trick they can to throw a wrench in the works.
 
the states don't get to have their own 2nd amendment, per se, but their state constitution gets to interpret the 2nd amendment of the Constitution in accordance with the local values of the people.

It might be worth noting that California, Iowa, Maryland, Minnesota, New Jersey and New York have no provisions in their state constitutions to keep and bear arms. The RKBA is not only stated in the constitution, but also in most state constitutions.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=841#WithOut
 
A common political campaign approach. "Sorry guys, we tried to support your interests. Just send more money so we can get an even greater majority and we will surely get it done next session."

52 republican senators > 46 democratic senators. This still holds true if you want to lump in the 2 independents with the dems.

239 > 194 in the House too.

Anyone citing the Democrats as the primary cause for legislation not passing is being made a fool of.
 
It takes 60 votes to pass legislation under regular order in the Senate. NOT a simple majority like it does in the House.

You only have 52 Republican Senators so you need a little help from the other side to pass legislation.

Its the Democrats pure and simple.
 
It takes 60 votes to pass legislation under regular order in the Senate. NOT a simple majority like it does in the House.

This is important, so let’s get specific.

“It does not take 60 votes to pass an ordinary bill in the Senate; it takes a majority of the senators voting... It has not traditionally been the custom that every bill gets a filibuster and so requires 60 votes in order to pass; plenty of bills in the past have passed the Senate with fewer than 60 votes. In recent years, the filibuster has changed from an occasional gambit to a more routine part of the process.”

That change was also not because of “the Democrats,” though there are several whose interest it would be in if we all believed that myopic view. The ability of the minority to obstruct is dependent on the willingness of the majority to be obstructed.
 
Lets get specific,

"In recent years, the filibuster has changed from an occasional gambit to a more routine part of the process. Since the Democrats took back the Senate after the 2006 elections, it has become almost a matter of course that a bill opposed by most of the minority party will have to overcome a filibuster in order to pass."

In today's environment you need 60 votes especially for anything gun related.
 
And the Democrats didn’t make it that way, and it remains that way with the permission of the republicans. “The Democrats” are neither the most significant problem nor the only barrier to this bill (and silencers, and the border, and myriad other policies of the administration). The simple view is the easiest to embrace, but also the most myopic and least productive.
 
And the Democrats didn’t make it that way, and it remains that way with the permission of the republicans. “The Democrats” are neither the most significant problem nor the only barrier to this bill (and silencers, and the border, and myriad other policies of the administration). The simple view is the easiest to embrace, but also the most myopic and least productive.

How exactly does it remain that way with the permission of the republicans? If you don't think the Democrats will filibuster anything gun related I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
 
How exactly does it remain that way with the permission of the republicans?
The Senate filibuster rule could be abolished by a simple majority, at the start of a session. Whichever party has the majority (the Republicans now) doesn't want to do that, because it realizes it could be in the minority after the next election. The Senate, as an institution, has a bias toward inaction. Specifically, regarding the gun issue, it might be better to have inaction rather than to have hasty action that could be easily reversed after the next election. In the long run, we as gun owners may be better served if any action involving guns requires a super-majority. (Anti-gun bills are usually up for consideration a lot more often than pro-gun bills, over a reasonable time span. Having pro-gun forces in control of both houses of Congress, and the presidency, is a historical aberration.)
 
The Senate filibuster rule could be abolished by a simple majority, at the start of a session. Whichever party has the majority (the Republicans now) doesn't want to do that, because it realizes it could be in the minority after the next election. The Senate, as an institution, has a bias toward inaction. Specifically, regarding the gun issue, it might be better to have inaction rather than to have hasty action that could be easily reversed after the next election. In the long run, we as gun owners may be better served if any action involving guns requires a super-majority. (Anti-gun bills are usually up for consideration a lot more often than pro-gun bills, over a reasonable time span. Having pro-gun forces in control of both houses of Congress, and the presidency, is a historical aberration.)

The 'nuclear' option that's what you're saying? Yea right and as soon as the Democrats take a majority of the Senate it goes right back and then some like a permanent AWB ban. Now who's being nearsighted.
 
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