Sawed-off shotgun question.

[Eited for clarity.]
The simplest answer is yes, either cutting a shotgun down below 26" OR cutting the barrel(s) below 18" will make an NFA firearm.

Now where there is some confusion is in the definition of "shotgun." In the legal definition of shotgun is the phrase "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder."

In the case of PGO shotguns, what most people think of as shotguns but really aren't under the law, your idea holds true. Look at the Mossberg "Shockwave" or Remington's new "TAC-14". Barrel length of
about 14". Overall length of a bit over 26".

That adds up to a non-NFA "Other Firearm."

If it has a shoulder stock, though, barrel's got to be 18+.

No. It is "no less than 18" with an overall length of at least 26". Gotta have both. Can't pick and choose.

Also, check state laws. Be a heck of a note to think you are legal by fed rules then get arrested on a violation of a state law.

Also, you got to look at the utility of such a gun. Just for fun, I modified a NEF 12 gauge single shot, by cutting the barrel to 18.5 and cutting down the buttstock to an over-all length of 27". Its a small gun and would fit well under your truck seat or in your canoe. but what a pain it is to fire. Seriously, it hurts, and I feel that any of my pistols or my 18.5" 590A1 has much more utility.

CaptTripps said:

Also, you got to look at the utility of such a gun. Just for fun, I modified a NEF 12 gauge single shot, by cutting the barrel to 18.5 and cutting down the buttstock to an over-all length of 27". Its a small gun and would fit well under your truck seat or in your canoe. but what a pain it is to fire. Seriously, it hurts, and I feel that any of my pistols or my 18.5" 590A1 has much more utility.

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I have one of these as well. Though made from a different host. They are not to be taken lightly, or shot by anyone who does not fully understand how to grip it like they mean it. It has 1 job that it does very very well though. I get a huge grin just from shooting it.

If you enjoy being told when to get up, when to go to bed, what cloths to where, where to eat, what to eat, where you may or may not go and when,.......................... 24 hrs a day 7 day a week for the next 5-10 years; HAVE AT IT. when they wake you up at 05:45 so you will be standing by your bunk with the light on a 06:00 ( so they can A see that your alive and B more importantly that your still there) NO BELLYACHING! just another dumb ass that thought they where smarter than society and bet their freedom on a 2 lettered word

Sam1911 said:

[Eited for clarity.]
The simplest answer is yes, either cutting a shotgun down below 26" OR cutting the barrel(s) below 18" will make an NFA firearm.

Now where there is some confusion is in the definition of "shotgun." In the legal definition of shotgun is the phrase "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder."

In the case of PGO shotguns, what most people think of as shotguns but really aren't under the law, your idea holds true. Look at the Mossberg "Shockwave" or Remington's new "TAC-14". Barrel length of
about 14". Overall length of a bit over 26".

That adds up to a non-NFA "Other Firearm."

If it has a shoulder stock, though, barrel's got to be 18+.

Click to expand...

Let's amend this: If if was manufactured with a shoulder stock. Replacing the stock on your 870 or 500 with a pistol grip does not make it an "other firearm", and cutting the barrels of a shotgun to less than 18" will render it a "weapon made from a shotgun", ergo NFA.

For the 26" OAL regardless of barrel length remaining title I to apply, the weapon must have always been an other "firearm", either manufactured as such or built from a virgin receiver.

jeepnik said:

Also, check state laws. Be a heck of a note to think you are legal by fed rules then get arrested on a violation of a state law.

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Absolutely.

If if was manufacturedwith a shoulder stock.

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Or re-manufactured. Meaning you took your other firearm Mossberg Shockwave and added a stock to it.

'Other firearm' like the Shockwave (at least 26" over all, barrel shorter than 18") is subject to federal age limits for handguns (minimum 21 years) and may be regulated or restricted by state and/or local laws on handguns or concealable weapons or may be banned outright under state or local law.

Sam1911 said:

Or re-manufactured. Meaning you took your other firearm Mossberg Shockwave and added a stock to it.

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We don't have any precedent for that one yet. Could it go back and forth between firearm and shotgun with PGO +14" barrel and then stock +18"+ barrel? Ostensibly. It's OK to convert pistols to rifles and back as long as they're never in an NFA configuration, but I'm not aware of any ruling one way or the other on firearm>shotgun>firearm.

Of course it would be NFA if you put a stock on it with the 14" tube, though.

Will the standard length Mossberg shotgun barrel even fit the Shockwave magazine tube, or is the Shockwave tube shorter than the standard Mossberg 500/590 models? That's my question.

Of course it would be NFA if you put astock on it with the 14" tube, though.

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Indeed so.

As to the "once a rifle...er shotgun..." Question? I agree we don't know the definitive answer to that one yet.

As to the op it's not either or it's both. I still don't even trust the shockwave to not have a flip on the atf ruling. I'm just not trying to deal with any of that. Also op make sure you go 18.5-18.75 so you don't wind up with hots and cots provided. Initial judgment is based on arresting officers judgement and measurements.

Just for the record : I went to many SG classes and qualifications where 14" barreled guns were used by me and others, the 18" barreled guns really are better in real world fights out side say 7 yards . To that end the AOL Ithaca 20 ga. Stakeout Model 37 I bought from police auction with out the barrel COULD of had a short barrel put on it legally, but I put a plain slim and short walnut one on at 12" OAL with Limbsaver and a Deer Slayer 20" barrel I found on ebay for my wife to use and now 15 years later my daughter in law has it. My son has the original hand grip and found an old 20ga. barrel which he cut down to front of mag tube length, but in shooting it at shilo's on his his oregon Ranch soon discovered the wisdom of returning it to configuration I gave him for his wife's protection purposes. I like an 18" Imp cylinder or rem choked barrel (Vang barrel is ideal) on my 870 12 ga. guns with a 13" LOP stock and a 7 shot mag extension for real world combat - period , even if I could have any other length.

Howdah type SxS sawed off's are fun tho , and if you buy a Stamp would be a fun blaster for kicks

Carl N. Brown said:

'Other firearm' like the Shockwave (at least 26" over all, barrel shorter than 18") is subject to federal age limits for handguns (minimum 21 years) and may be regulated or restricted by state and/or local laws on handguns or concealable weapons or may be banned outright under state or local law.

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California says that anything designed to fire a shotgun shell with a barrel shorter than 18" is a Short Barreled Shotgun. That's why the Taurus Judge is illegal there, and now the Shockwave.

Question, when an LEO measures your shotgun barrel, does he stick the tape measure down the barrel and measure from the chamber to the tip of the barrel or start where he perceives is the beginning of the barrel, (where the barrel enters the chamber) out to the tip.

Reason I asked is, when I sawed mine off, well over 30 years ago, I had the barrel disassembled from the chamber, so I measured the whole barrel and cut it off at 18 1/2". When I inserted the barrel back in the chamber, the barrel was under 18", unless you stick the tape down the barrel and measure from there.

So, am I legal or not?

Legal barrel length is from the breechface to the muzzle, no eyeballing of the outside of the gun.
You are legal.
I suggest you not get in a position to have your barrel measured, not all police know the fine details of the law. So you can be right and still be explaining yourself in court.

Indeed. Close the action and insert a wooden rod or cleaning rod down the bore until it rests on the face of the bolt. Mark the rod at the muzzle. Pull it back out and measure to the mark. You want that to be more than 18".

That's how I was taught to do it, and I was told that's how the ATF measures. I always add .5" .

Better to have extra than to have free room and board.

Behind the counter of the gun shop I worked for awhile was a green painted dowel that was cut as close to 18" as was humanly possible. If a customer brought in a shotgun that looked questionable, after being check for clear, the gun was put in firing condition and the dowel dropped down the barrel. If any part of the dowel was visible looking across the muzzle the customer was told of the problem and politely instructed to immediately remove the gun from the shop. If there was a question as to the accuracy of the dowel, in the safe in the back was a stainless steel rod made by on of the shop's customers who was precision machinist that was exactly 18" long at 70 degrees F.

Jim Watson,

No worries about getting arrested, it sits in my garage, wrapped in a towel, hidden out of sight, as it has been for years, as a back-up.