Let's Talk Ball and Patch Size in a .44 Cal

I feel bad primarily because your bore doesn't seem to closely match your gun's designated caliber as stamped on the barrel.
The bore sounds like it tapers to a much smaller diameter as it goes toward the breech which is unusual.
How much it tapers I don't know.

The only other thing that I can think of is that the bore is dirty or rusted.
The extremely tapered bore is not typical of Pedersoli quality workmanship.

A bare .433 ball ordinarily does not need to be drilled out of a .44 caliber bore, especially after it free falls half of the way down.

It sounds like you will need not only an undersized ball, but the accuracy will be affected by the loose muzzle spec.'s. since
whatever fits tight in the barrel breech will be considerably looser at the muzzle.

Have you been able to swab all of the way down to the bottom of the bore to see if it is smooth?

A ,429 is not too much different than a .433, especially if the .433 needed to be drilled out and could not be hammered down onto the powder charge.

You may need a .410 or .424 ball since the bottom of your bore is smaller than .433.--->>> https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx/2?search=round balls

Another option would be to scrub out your bore if you haven't already and inspect it the best that you can.
Some times a bore can be lapped with valve grinding compound from NAPA Auto Parts to polish and smooth it out a bit where it needs to be.

If you can scrub it with a bore brush or brass wool or fine steel wool, and then shine a light through the nipple hole and see if it's smooth and shiny down in there,
then at least you'll know if it's a clean or simply defective barrel or not.

Even it it's defective, you will probably need a ball that's under a .429.
That's just my opinion based on your prior experience.

I don't know what size ball will drop in there all of the way to the bottom.
At least a greatly undersized ball can be patched enough to provide a modicum of powder compression for close range target shooting.

Personally, I'm not afraid to hammer a ball down into the breech.
I would have done that before I drilled it out because lead will generally deform enough to fit the bore if enough force is applied.
In your case with a broken starter & jag, a thick dowel would be needed to hammer it in.
Better to use a very loose ball that leaves plenty of room for a patch.
But the exact size ball is unknown, especially without a better idea of the bore condition.
I'm not going to recommend casting the bore with Cerrosafe that far down into your barrel just to determine its diameter down in there.

Casting with pure lead? Scrap may not be pure. An alloy mix may be to hard* and hard* to load.

a thick dowel would be needed to hammer it

Click to expand...

No wood. Brass rod.

I see, you didn't load any powder which made it necessary to pull it out with the screw.
A few grains of powder could have also been dribbled into the nipple hole to shoot it out [after removing the nipple].

Measuring that pulled ball may have been able to provide an indication of the bore size down in the breech area if it was intact.
Did you save the remnants of the ball?

An .005 patch is pretty much the thinnest commercial patch.
They can also be doubled by using 2 of them that may come pretty close to equaling a .010 patch [plus any extra lube].

I'm not aware of any reason for concern about using a .45 patch for a .44 ball, or in a .42 - .43 bore.
Extra patch material should not be detrimental.

Blackpowdershooter44 said:

I had to push the bare ball all the way down so i could get a bullet screw in to pull it out.

Click to expand...

As a question above:
- Why wasn't powder loaded before the ball? (e.g., just shoot the ball out)
- If dry-balled, why not pull the nipple/put a couple/3-5 grains of powder into the ignition channel/replace nipple/shoot it (again) ?

That said -- go w/ a .429 (pure lead) ball and thin patch til you get comfortable w/ the ball/patch combo. (ps: put powder in ahead of time)
If necessary, smack/hammer the ball down to the powder

There is something amiss here. First up I'd give Pedersoli a call for information. The Pedersoli Kentucky pistol if found on the net was a .45 that uses.440 round balls. If you are using a hard lead you will get no place in a hurry. You are getting into one of the shooting activities that is highly addictive. Pedersoli does have a single shot target pistol in .44 caliber, Are you absolutely sure of the bore size? Surely, you are not trying to hammer a 44 caliber ball down a .36 caliber gun?

The only safety requirement is the ball has to be sitting on the powder charge. No air space between powder and ball.
I have loaded powder, tissue paper, ball, and more tissue paper as a top wad, to keep the ball from moving.

The tissue paper makes a mess , compared to a patch.

Patch material:

- Go to any fabric store/take your calipers with you.
- Get a yard of lightweight cotton muslin. Five bucks - cheap
- Cut a 1½" strip out.
- Load powder down barrel
- Moisten muslin strip/end in mouth and lay over muzzle.
- Smack ball down into muzzle/flush -- then cut muslin off flush w/ sharp knife
- Smack short starter down to get ball/patch fully started
- Smack long starter rest of way
- Smack ramrod down (repeat as req'd) to seat fully home.






(Did I mention 'smack' ?)

How about you guys explaining how to read patches. What would be if the patch were cut by the lands. What would it be if the patch had a hole blown through it. Explain how to collect his patches after he shoots. How thick does his patch need to be ? How about pillow ticking instead of muslin. How much resistance do you expect seating the ball. What about patch lube. Does a smack mean I have to drive my ball all the way down the barrel? He may be using pre-cut and lubricated patches. Have at it Hawkeye! Check out the little picture to see what kind of rifle Mo is shooting. Mo is challenged and we let him hold the rifle.

Delete

Pillow ticking is the favored material, but usually 15-18 thousandths
Muslin is about as thin a material as strong enough to hold together.

No formula as to patch thickness other than the combination ball/spit-moistened patch should be "smoothly stiff" going down the (clean/wiped) barrel with two hands on the ramrod. *

Deep grooves ~ thicker pillow ticking
Shallow grooves ~ thinner muslin

It's a "art"





* stiff is a function of practical leverage. With rifle/butt on ground it can be fairly stiff. Handgun/no leverage would be "less" stiff. [Did I mention "art" ?]

.

MEHavey said:

Pillow ticking is the favored material, but usually 15-18 thousandths
Muslin is about as thin a material as strong enough to hold together.

No formula as to patch thickness other than the combination ball/spit-moistened patch should be "smoothly stiff" going down the (clean/wiped) barrel with two hands on the ramrod. *

Deep grooves ~ thicker pillow ticking
Shallow grooves ~ thinner muslin

.

Click to expand...

"Odd" bores sometimes are also "odd" when it comes to milling. I've seen such bores respond with a thin patch of .010 or thinner. The way to get them to work well, sometimes, is to add a 20 grain filler, or cornmeal or cream-of-wheat, or old style a piece of hornet's nest between the patched ball and the powder. I also saw one case where the shooter got a conical mold for a revolver bullet in .44 so it was .429. Only instead of casting it with bullet alloy, he used pure lead so the bullets came out around .425 -.427. The rifling was 1:48 and they worked very well out to 50 yards or so.

LD

Lymans and Green Mtn barrels are deep grooved.
Pedersoli's tend to be shallower.

Muslin ~ "twill"

See
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5987619&postcount=5
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-plains-rifle-54-caliber.746851/#post-9397296


.

My barrels now are deep grove specifically for patch round ball. However, I am able to use pillow ticking on most anything. I was able to use .015 ticking patches in several .54 caliber T/C's with very satisfactory results. The only time I use muslin is in a 54 caliber 1841 replica.

Some folks do want smoothly down the bore. Others prefer a ball starter and more effort on rod going down. It's not unusual to find bore size balls being used. For me, that does not work so well. I tried .498 in a 50 caliber barrels. Went quickly back to .495's. incidentally, we were using pistol stands. One may find loading a muzzle loading pistol a three handed job.

Frankly, I'm put off by not finding some data of the Pedersoli's 44 caliber firearms. This 429 ball and .005 patch does not sound right. Currently Pedersoli does have a big ticket target cap lock pistol advertised as a 44. Older Dixie catalogs did have round balls listed for certain firearms. I have a pile of odd ball Lyman molds. Let me know if I can help via private email. Any information showing up will be posted here. OK?

Mowgli Terry said:

Currently Pedersoli does have a big ticket target cap lock pistol advertised as a 44

Click to expand...

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...le-page-target-standard-percussion-model.html
Pedersoli says 0.435"
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...2/accessories-bullet-set-100-round-balls.html


DixieGunworks Shooter use 0.433 (0.010" patched)
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...1/product_name/PH0431+Pedersoli+LePage+Pistol



(I have a feeling that the OP is not yet familiar with the term "smoothly stiff" )
.

What caliber is OP's handgun really? How about a ,395 round ball and .015 patch? Not having seen the gun, my SWAG is as good as yours. We all be like the blind men and the elephant. Could it be we need some more information?

Keep flint sharp and powder dry! Seasons Greeting...for sure.

And a .433 ball won't fit? Right? Did you even consider calling Pedersoli to find out what they used for .44 caliber. You can look up the time the gun was proofed. It's a letter code. Get any website that has Italian proof marks for the information. Call Pedersoli and tell them the year it was proofed and a .433 ball will not fit. Also, you can pull the breech plug and slug the bore.

Addendum: What do the other marks on the gun look like? That's a Pedersoli?