n00b asks: wad instead of patch for .40cal pistol?

[tradja]

I am very new to blackpowder. Last fall, I spent an afternoon with a friend, an experienced blackpowder shooter, and got the basics of safety and technique.

Fast forward to last weekend. My wife's parents visited and gave me a blackpowder pistol that had belonged to my wife's grandfather.

It is a plains-style single-shot percussion pistol, in excellent condition, marked FIE (isn't this the Tangfolio outfit?). It seemed like too big a bore to be a .36, and a when I tested for fit, a .45ACP slug seemed tight in the muzzle.

I brought it to Sportsman's Warehouse, and the clerk measured the bore with calipers (in the back room), and told me it was a .40cal. He said that ideally, I was looking for a .415 or .425 ball. However, the only .40 balls he had were .433. They are are a snug fit in the muzzle, and won't accomodate a patch, so he sold me some .44/.45 wads to use instead of a patch. I wonder what projectile/patch/wad combo this gun was originally designed for?

In retrospect, this is where the comes in. I'm not convinced he was half as knowledgeable as he came off. Should I really shoot these .433 balls with a wad? Or should I order some .415 or .425 from trackofthewolf.com? Or is this really a .36cal pistol, using patched .375 balls?

I don't know of any real blackpowder shops or blackpowder gunsmiths in my area.

Just my luck to get an oddball caliber, but I am very pleased to have received a gun as a gift, my first blackpowder piece, and one with family significance.

Thanks.

 

[DixieTexian]

Look around at some gun oriented pawn shops/ Al ot of those places are owned by or have people on staff who shoot black powder and know what they are talking about. Also look at gunsmiths.

 

[Plink]

Shooting unpatched balls is a recipe for lead fouling and poor accuracy, even with a wad. I'd look for some balls and patches that fit properly. You can still use the wad behind them. In fact, that usually boosts accuracy anyway. Good luck and welcome aboard! Black powder guns are addictive beyond belief.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Smoothbore or rifled? If it's a smoothbore shooting without a patch is less of a problem when it comes to accuracy, no rifling to fill with lead or powder byproducts. I'd hunt down proper fitting balls and patches though to get the most out of the gun. You could also load it with some lead shot, that's always fun to play with in a muzzleloading pistol.

 

[tradja]

Smoothbore or rifled?

Rifled.

I was concerned about a lack of patch causing excess lead fouling, but mostly I was wondering if this practice that the clerk recommended is generally safe. When I told him that I figured on a 20gr powder charge, this same clerk told me that "you can't overcharge a BP pistol. You could fill the entire barrel with powder right up to the muzzle, but all the excess powder would just push out unburned."

I'd hunt down proper fitting balls and patches though to get the most out of the gun.

What would be the best way for me to determine the proper size ball and patch?

You could also load it with some lead shot, that's always fun to play with in a muzzleloading pistol.

This sounds fun too. What are the basics of doing this?

 

[mainmech48]

To get the best accuracy and to make cleaning easier by eliminating the chance of leading you want to use a patched ball. The dry lubed revolver wad won't do much for you on either count.

Five bucks for the Dixie Gun Works catalog buys you a lot of solid information as well as hours of bathroom reading. Not only will they give you information on how to determine the correct powder charge, ball size and patch thickness for your pistol, but they'll almost certainly have the items in-stock.

While you can almost certainly shoot the stuff you bought in your pistol without blowing your hand off (assuming a powder charge on the lighter side of reasonable) you can be equally certain of being likely to be disappointed with the results.

FIE was an import/export firm based in Florida. They are now defunct, IIRC, and used to import Tanfoglio and several other lines, mostly European, of varying quality. It is unlikely that your pistol was made by Fratelli Tanfoglio, as they did not manufacture any BP replicas that I'm aware of. While tracking down the exact maker might be difficult, the proof markings stamped on your pistol can be used to identify the country of origin. Italy or Spain would be most likely.

What that clerk told you about not being able to overcharge a BP weapon is BOGUS!!! PLEASE DO NOT TRY IT!! You can lose your sight, your fingers or your life that way, ruining your pistol and your whole day in the process. Modern steels are indeed better than what the originals used, but they aren't magical. Twenty grains is entirely reasonable for such a piece. Forty might be okay, but it is just as likely to be too much. Why push things for no other reason but to make more noise and smoke? Start low and work up slowly until you get your best groups and leave it at that.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[arcticap]

You need to get an accurate bore measurement using calipers. Any gunsmith or auto mechanic should have some. Some pistols may have a choked muzzle which might make it seem tighter at the crown. Other pistols could have a coned or flared muzzle which is larger than the interior bore. While the measurement of rifled barrels is usually done land-to-land, some companies assign caliber closer to groove-to-groove measurements.
The right balls should usually be .005 to .010 smaller than the land-to-land measurement, with the remainder of the bore being filled up by using various patch thicknesses which are labeled on the packaging.
A ball can be safely fired without a patch as long as the ball remains seated on top of the powder charge and doesn't roll forward before firing the gun. One way to do that is to crumple up a small ball of newspaper and tamp that down on top of the ball to use as a home made over shot wad. It should be snug enough to keep the ball seated on top of the wads you have. If your wool wads are tight enough, they can serve as your over-shot (or over-ball wad). I wouldn't be concerned about leading if you keep your powder charge as low as you indicated, 20 grains.
This same wadding method can be applied to shoot shot out of a pistol, by sandwiching the shot in between 2 wads on top of the powder. The larger the shot charge, the more powder that you'd want to use, but it needs to stay seated on top the powder. A larger wad of compressed cotton can work too, and can be used in combination with newspaper wadding. In the old days, they used whatever they had over the powder, leaves, hornets nest, leather or tow (flax). As long as you can hammer and keep the ball (or shot) down on top of the powder, the pistol can be safely fired.

 

[Plink]

The easiest way to measure ball size that I've found is to take a cone shaped fishing sinker and carefully tap it partially into the muzzle. Leave enough that you can grab with pliers. Pull it back out and measure with calipers. Figure on a ball that's about .010 under and patches that are about .015 as a starting point. You can go thicker or thinner on patches, larger or smaller on the ball, as needed for maximum accuracy. That's where I generally start and rarely do I end up changing anything, other than maybe going to .018 patches in guns where it makes a difference. Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[tradja]

What that clerk told you about not being able to overcharge a BP weapon is BOGUS!!! PLEASE DO NOT TRY IT!!

Thanks! The rolleyes in my post was meant to express my head-shaking at the clerk's bomb-making advice. I sure don't know much about BP, but I know better than to "fill 'er up!" And you're right -- you can't make this point too clear!

The right balls should usually be .005 to .010 smaller than the land-to-land measurement, with the remainder of the bore being filled up by using various patch thicknesses

Figure on a ball that's about .010 under and patches that are about .015 as a starting point.

This is exactly the info that I am looking for. The .433 balls fit the bore snugly, so I guess that .425 balls with .015 patches would be a good starting point. Am I on the right track? Or should I try a thinner (.010) patch first? I really wanted to avoid dumping $100+ into a free gun that I really envision shooting only occasionally. So before I haphazardly buy another batch of the wrong supplies, I glad to benefit from the collective experience here and make some better-informed choices.

The pistol has a proof marking on the barrel (a combined "B" and "L" inside a capital "G"), is marked "Italy", and also has the numerals "041" in a different spot up near the nipple. I have no reason to assume that the 041 is any kind of caliber marking, since it is separate from the other markings, and the individual number stampings aren't aligned in a straight line. When my MIL gave it to me, she presented it as an heirloom item and originally wanted me to appraise it and try to sell it for her. But even with my very basic knowledge of BP firearms, a quick search enabled me to break the bad news to her that although it was indeed a nice piece with sentimental value for her, and she paid a fair amount for it back in the 70's, that it was probably worth less than $100 now.

I really look forward to shooting it (when I finally identify and find appropriate balls and patches), and hopefully it will motivate me to go to a rendevous.

EDIT: Thanks arcticap for the shot info! Sounds like some fun experimentation, and perhaps even a brush-gun quail possibility.

 

[Donny]

Best fit for your pistol would be a .395 ball and a .015 patch. Deer Creek has them and probably Dixie gun works too.

Don

 

[oneshooter]

40cal shooting supplies

You might try here for supplies, very fast delivery (3 days), and they should have everything you will need(balls, patches, starters, ect.)

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(dzkzh055iswg32450dvmn5ne))/index.aspx


Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Plink]

I'd measure the bore first. That way you can buy exactly the right ball size without wasting money experimenting with size. As for lube, use what you have around the house. Crisco, vegetable oil, liquid hand soap, etc. Avoid petroleum products though, as these foul the bore something fierce.