Old Smith Autos should be the new 1911.

.455_Hunter said:

I am still not quite sure what supposed "advantages" for making a race gun have anything to do with normal use for home defense and carry.

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In thinking about home defense and carry, I don't assume that my first shot would always get the job. So I care about how fast and accurately I can get off the second and third shots, and so on. Everything I'm talking about (except perhaps the safety, though I can make a case that a DTF frame safety encourages a better grip) relates directly to that.

If you don't think the speed and accuracy of the second shot matters, then sure.

.455_Hunter said:

for many of us it works just fine, or superior to "modern" platforms like the supposedly universal G19...I take shooters to the range and we fire all of their cool striker guns,

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Not really relevant to my comments. I'm explaining why the previous steel-framed Smiths would have a hard time taking market share from existing current-production steel-frame hammer-fired guns.

I would even agree they are perfectly adequate for most uses. I'm just saying the market already has better options in it.

ETA: Also, I am totally cool with people liking older designs as a matter of personal taste. I still have a Browning BDM, which has nearly all of my complaints about the S&W steel frames, plus a couple of others! I like it. But I wouldn't expect it to do well in the market if re-released... at least not without fixing a whole bunch of stuff. But it is a cool design, and I'm keeping mine.

Likewise, I think DC-3's are cool airplanes. My grandfather flew one. I'd love to have one. It would make about zero sense for Boeing (who bought McDonnel Douglas who had merged with Douglas who made the DC-3) to start cranking those out again, though. Among twin-engine light- to medium-haul cargo and passenger planes, a million better-performing options fill the market. It's a cool machine... but it couldn't take market share from anything today. For precisely the same reasons, while I actually kind of like the old S&W 3rd gen guns, they'd struggle to take market share if put back into production.

Waveski said:

You are talking about the same company that is rerunning the names of venerable firearms of the past ; pasting them on to unworthy new products - "Victory" & "Chiefs Special" for example.
Seems to me that S&W has little respect for it's own past.

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By now, it owned by totally different people, group, share holders than those name were created.
They only respect the numbers of bank account (sadly for us),
czhen
FL

I have been shooting duty style hammer DA/SA guns for 20 years now and own representative examples of all major platforms (Beretta, Sig, S&W, CZ and Ruger). For me, shooting equivalent examples side-by-side doesn't demonstrate any fundamental disadvantage for the S&W product. I am not a gamer- I shoot to build/maintain defensive skills, general marksmanship, and fun. I truly believe S&W could still offer competitive limited options for those shooters in the CZ-75 series/Beretta 92 series/Sig 22X series marketplace. However, external forces outside of the platform's design merits have unfortunately appeared to rule the day.

If S&W started offering remakes of older handguns designs they would end up in the same sinking boat that Colt is in.
There are a bunch of well made guns that are no longer on the market.
The older S&W autos were well made, but sales dropped off after law enforcers went away from them. And if a company can’t make a profit on the sales of a product, they stop making it.
There’s been little to no after market support for the older S&W autos. There could be a few reasons for this, but it is most likely because there wouldn’t be enough buyers to support it.
I like the old S&W autos. I even have one of them tucked away in the back of one of my safes. But the one thing I have never liked about them is that slide mounted safety.

I think the only 3rd Generation gun that would really sell passably would be a 1076. Those are going for $800-$1,000 used, so it might be profitable.

Okay, so consider myself basically a steel and wood gun guy who still favors 1911s and DA/SA autos ...

... but I wonder how many of those who think the 3rd Gen Smiths are better pistols than the M&Ps actually have carried both in a duty capacity for twelve or sixteen hours a day and have substantial trigger time on both? I have. Touting the accuracy of the 3rd Gen guns? Average. What those boat-anchors had going for them (and I still love them) was their durability and reliability.

But, the M&P 2.0 is far more ergonomic, with a far better trigger, far better sights, waaayy lighter in weight and with the most recent production runs, better accuracy, so to me, it makes far more sense for a duty pistol than any of the previous S&W autoloaders. Add in a good mini RDS and a Safariland ALS holster, and you're light years ahead of what we carried in the '90s.

There have been several comments critical of the S&W slide mounted safety. I ask the following question - not to challenge that opinion , but to further my understanding:

What is the basis for the negative opinions about the slide mounted safety?

Footnote: I own a 5906 and have pretty high regard for it.

Waveski said:

There have been several comments critical of the S&W slide mounted safety. I ask the following question - not to challenge that opinion , but to further my understanding:

What is the basis for the negative opinions about the slide mounted safety?

Footnote: I own a 5906 and have pretty high regard for it.

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It's an uppie and not a downie and it's not a 1911. And it's a wonderful day in the neighborhood!

Dustbowl said:

For my 39 I love the slide mounted safety. It feels natural to draw and flip up my thumb to take off the safety. I’ve seen a ton of hate on them and Beretta 92’s because they are different than the standard bring thumb down safety on 1911’s and other platforms. If you train with a gun enough it’s controls will become natural to you.

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Yes, you can train with any gun and become good with the controls.
The problem with slide mounted safeties is that you have to push up with your thumb to disengage them. This is not a national movement of the hand when grabbing something.
Just look at the guns on the market today that have manual safeties. You will see that just about all have frame mounted safeties.

Most older guys like steel frame guns, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
My favorite gun is s 1911, but I don’t carry one daily. I put my gun on at 4am and don’t take it off any earlier then 4pm. Think God for Polymer frame guns.

I have pretty short fingers and have owned both a Beretta 92 and a 3rd gen Smith, operating the safety on either is nearly impossible for me one handed without really moving the pistol around. One handed safety operating probably will never be necessary but stuff happens. Frame mounted safeties are much easier and intuitive whether you’re using one hand or two.

GunnyUSMC said:

Yes, you can train with any gun and become good with the controls.
The problem with slide mounted safeties is that you have to push up with your thumb to disengage them. This is not a national movement of the hand when grabbing something.
Just look at the guns on the market today that have manual safeties. You will see that just about all have frame mounted safeties.

Most older guys like steel frame guns, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
My favorite gun is s 1911, but I don’t carry one daily. I put my gun on at 4am and don’t take it off any earlier then 4pm. Think Hod for Polymer frame guns.

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I Think Hod everyday.......

NIGHTLORD40K said:

I Think Hod everyday.......

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I’m having one of those days

GunnyUSMC said:

Yes, you can train with any gun and become good with the controls.
The problem with slide mounted safeties is that you have to push up with your thumb to disengage them. This is not a national movement of the hand when grabbing something.
Just look at the guns on the market today that have manual safeties. You will see that just about all have frame mounted safeties.

Most older guys like steel frame guns, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
My favorite gun is s 1911, but I don’t carry one daily. I put my gun on at 4am and don’t take it off any earlier then 4pm. Think God for Polymer frame guns.

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I have had to carry, on duty and off, everything from a S&W model 19 to a Glock 22 (which included 1911's, M35's, and 59/39 S&W) in my 40+ years in LE . I do not see your point here. An alloy frame gun is just as 'light' as the poly frame gun. I would MUCH prefer the 5903 over ANY Glock or any other poly pistol. The 'safety' on the S&W 39 and 59 series should ONLY BE USED AS A DECOCKER. The DA first shot is a VERY GOOD thing in a real world, adrenaline washed real world shoot out. The 'startled' response unintentional discharge is almost totally eliminated with type of platform. The FOT sounds good but no matter how much you train I still see MANY officers with their finger ON the trigger when the SHTF. The first and most important consideration SHOULD BE hit probability, but that has went by the way side because 'budget considerations' are more important to most police administrators than choosing the BEST/RIGHT tool for the job!

Jim Rau said:

I have had to carry, on duty and off, everything from a S&W model 19 to a Glock 22 (which included 1911's, M35's, and 59/39 S&W) in my 40+ years in LE . I do not see your point here. An alloy frame gun is just as 'light' as the poly frame gun. I would MUCH prefer the 5903 over ANY Glock or any other poly pistol. The 'safety' on the S&W 39 and 59 series should ONLY BE USED AS A DECOCKER. The DA first shot is a VERY GOOD thing in a real world, adrenaline washed real world shoot out. The 'startled' response unintentional discharge is almost totally eliminated with type of platform. The FOT sounds good but no matter how much you train I still see MANY officers with their finger ON the trigger when the SHTF. The first and most important consideration SHOULD BE hit probability, but that has went by the way side because 'budget considerations' are more important to most police administrators than choosing the BEST/RIGHT tool for the job!

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Not sure which point you didn’t get because, I made two.
Number one, The safety. Mounted on the slide it is high and raising your thumb is not natural when gripping something.
Number two, weight. Today’s patrol officer is loaded down with more gear and work 10 to 14 hour days. And if you can’t tell the defense in carrying a heavy gun vs. a lighter gun, you must have a big S on your chest and a cape.
The Smith Gen3 gun’s were great guns in their time. But their are much better guns on the market today.
And if Smith were to start making the Gen3 guns again, the cost would be high and the sales would be low.

Always loved the look of their pistols and they felt good in my hand but I couldn't hit jack with one for some reason. Same for a Baretta 92, love the look but it just won't work for me. Old school Sigs, my HP35 and 1911's work better for me and I can't figure out why.

Bill

my $0.02
S&W autos were nothing more than a stepping stone on the road of handgun evolution, whereby the 1911 and BHP were milestones. While I appreciate S&W's contribution to semi auto design, they did nothing new and have been surpassed long ago in ergonomics and functionality. The high bore axis and clunky design offers nothing new or better than options that have come since.
I've never been attracted to S&W autos because they have never done anything special or new, and have several shortcomings such as their size, weight, bulk, and high bore axis

While I'm ready to admit the S&W TDA auto's have had their day and time has passed them by, and I've owned an S%W 4506 since the late 1980's, I always consider the "backwards operating, slide mounted safety" argument a little of a head scratcher.

It's a safety/decocker. Unless required by your employer to use it as a safety, nearly everybody simply uses the device as a decocker. Round chambered, hammer decocked, safety off.

I'll use the safety if I throw the gun in a bag, or if it's placed in a nightstand drawer, but if I have the gun on me, the hammer is decocked and the safety is off. It's an added safety feature that can be used for some circumstances, but is not normally used for carry.

silicosys4 said:

my $0.02
S&W autos were nothing more than a stepping stone on the road of handgun evolution, whereby the 1911 and BHP were milestones.

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My .02 cents agrees.

I'm a known fan of hammer Fired guns. Beretta 92/6, sig 22x, HK USP, Hi-power, 1911 (although I'm no huge fan) FN, Ruger P-series, Witness, etc. My only Smith is a 1006 and only because not so long ago there werent many options in 10mm. (Delta, Bren, Glock, and Smith were about it) I prefer any of the above guns to the Smiths in 9 or 40. I still view Smith and Wesson as a fine maker of revolvers. Not so much autos. I never met a Smith (or a USP btw) with a decent, much less good trigger. Plenty usable for a combat handgun but why settle when there is so much better. I also know departments that carried P-series Rugers, Sigs, Beretta and HK but none that chose the Smith. Some including my State troopers and my Game guys still carry the Sig and HK. I personally choose the Glock.
The only way I see a repro smith doing well is a PC gun in 10mm to appeal to the hunting crowd. In the smaller calibers i just cant see it making a profit

I also agree with one post above about the sig. I'm not sure how they are still making enough money off of them to keep up production. Unless you just have to have a Legion humidor or challenge coin I cant see what Sig has done to capture interest other than the 220 in 10mm. Especially with nice used 22x guns under 400-500 dollars.

And remember that most if not all the retro guns so far have been met with little fanfare. They tend to be cheapened down and largely unrelated to the originals. Thompson, M1 carbine, sig 210, 1887 winchester, etc. I've not been impressed with any of them really.

Like old GM Cars made between 73 and 79.....????

Master Blaster said:

Like old GM Cars made between 73 and 79.....????

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Any old car. I have a few old Fords from the 60s and 70s. I hear "I had one/ I loved those/my favorite car" etc. Then I let them drive one and they quickly remember how bad they truly were. No power breaks, 4 wheel drums, no power steering, non synchronized transmissions. Terrible handling....Horrible seating position. Etc. We tend to remember the best from the good ol days but forget the not so good.

If Browning had to retire the BHP, I don't think there's any market left for the steel Smiths either.

Mosin Bubba said:

If Browning had to retire the BHP, I don't think there's any market left for the steel Smiths either.

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For clarity, it was FN that retired the Hi-Power.

GunnyUSMC said:

Not sure which point you didn’t get because, I made two.
Number one, The safety. Mounted on the slide it is high and raising your thumb is not natural when gripping something.
Number two, weight. Today’s patrol officer is loaded down with more gear and work 10 to 14 hour days. And if you can’t tell the defense in carrying a heavy gun vs. a lighter gun, you must have a big S on your chest and a cape.
The Smith Gen3 gun’s were great guns in their time. But their are much better guns on the market today.
And if Smith were to start making the Gen3 guns again, the cost would be high and the sales would be low.

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I guess 'better' is in the eye of the beholder!!! But I addressed both your points. Alloy or poly, they are both much lighter than steel. And as I said, the 'safety' is to be used as a decocker only on the 59 series S&W's, so you simply draw and pull the trigger, no safety involved in the firing process. And that is how we trained when we carried the S&W's. I said, and observed, that one of the draw backs to the 'trigger finger' being the only safety is the startle response in critical situations. Just reality. A long, deliberate, DA trigger pull on your first shot is your friend in the real world no matter how you train. Happy Thanksgiving, be safe!!!

Jim Rau said:

I guess 'better' is in the eye of the beholder!!! But I addressed both your points. Alloy or poly, they are both much lighter than steel. And as I said, the 'safety' is to be used as a decocker only on the 59 series S&W's, so you simply draw and pull the trigger, no safety involved in the firing process. And that is how we trained when we carried the S&W's. I said, and observed, that one of the draw backs to the 'trigger finger' being the only safety is the startle response in critical situations. Just reality. A long, deliberate, DA trigger pull on your first shot is your friend in the real world no matter how you train. Happy Thanksgiving, be safe!!!

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I have never been a big fan of DA/SA handguns.
The problem with DA/SA guns don’t really show up on the range where there’s little stress. Most can shoot very well and hit their target. The problem comes in to play with you add high stress. There are a lot of shooters that have never looked at a real person through the sights of their gun, or much less shot someone. Things change when your target is capable of killing you.
I carried a DA only 4046 for two years on duty. The gun was heavy and the trigger pull was 11 lbs. I never had a problem with shooting a high score when qualifying, but when doing high stress training, making good hits was much harder.
Now don’t get me wrong. The S&W autos were great guns in their time. But many advancements have come about over the years and there are much better guns on the market today.
Would the older S&W autos sale if Smith started making them again ? Sure. Some of the guys that like them would, but I think the price would prove to be a factor and not many would sale.
Even if Smith could keep the price competitive with the current market, I don’t think sales would be enough.
I don’t see to many gen 3 Smiths in the local gun shops around here, but if I do run across a good clean one at a good price, I may buy it.