1911 sacrilege

[xsquidgator]

Forgive me for I have probably sinned. But, I cannot deny it...

So I bought my first 1911, a Springfield Armory "GI" basic model, yesterday. Between yesterday and today put about 400 or 500 rounds (45ACP, mostly my own reload 230LRNs but some FMJ and JHP defensive ammo too). On the rare occasions in the Navy when I was issued a firearm, it was a 1911 45 and this pistol is a nice modern remake very close to my decades old memories of that. Nice pistol, well made yada yada and I really did enjoy shooting it.

The sacrilege: I really WANT to like this 1911 better than my other autoloaders. I have a range of handguns, from some 357 wheelguns to conventional SA/DA 9mm handguns, a DAO plastic framed 9mm, and an M&P45 I got last year (the only other 45 I own). The sacrilege I committed was this afternoon when I realized by golly, this 1911 makes me really appreciate my Smith and Wesson M&P45!

The M&P45 of mine anyway is a simple black pistol that has been unexciting because it has always worked, always, never a problem to generate notice. As I now appreciate after putting a couple hundred rounds downrange through my 1911, it is MUCH easier on the hand than a basic 1911. I like the non-skid wooden checkered grips on the 1911, and I like its heft, I don't know how much it weighs but it's a lot. But darn, the web of my hand around my thumb is rubbed raw now from grabbing that checkered wood! And although I like the SA action of the 1911, I'm still more accurate with my sort of Glockish double action M&P45. Not to mention I have four 10-round magazines for the M&P, just have a standard 7 rounder for the 1911.

My main disappointment (hopefully temporary) is the reliability thing. Quite a few failures to feed properly or for the slide to go all the way into battery. These happened with all the types of ammo I tried. Some of this I attribute to being a new gun that needs "breaking in", but it is a little disappointing. Until I get it resolved I don't see using this 1911 even for "nightstand gun" duty. Perhaps shooting hundreds more rounds through it will smooth up the slide action and so forth. I guess my M&P45 spoiled me with its monotonous reliability that I kind of took for granted. Cleaning both guns tonight at home also gave me an appreciation of how easy and simple the M&P45 is to clean and reassemble. Now that I've cleaned the 1911 a few times, I can reassemble it with few problems, but the 100 year old design just doesn't seem as convenient in this respect as my modern pistols.

So, am I nuts or a heretic for not totally loving on my new 1911? Don't get me wrong, I like the pistol for a number of reasons. I guess I'm maybe an infidel for doubting perhaps the basic genius of the 1911 design though compared to modern pistols. Modern pistols, especially the poly-framed ones, just don't have the same cachet as an all-steel 1911. But, are convenience and reliability, just maybe, worth more than cachet? I suspect I'll need to buy some more plastic pistols and at least one more 1911 to answer that for myself. What does the peanut gallery say (dodging a tomato right now!)?

 

[coelacanth]

nah, we're not chuckin' tomatoes at ya'. . . . . .

yet. Give yourself a break. 400-500 rounds a day is a lot out of any handgun - especially one with sharp new checkering. I'd be a little more concerned about FTF and FTE issues but so far it doesn't sound like anything some fine tuning can't make right. A good thorough cleaning and proper lube may cure some of the problems or you may have a pistol that prefers certain kinds of ammo over others. There are plenty of experts here at THR that can help you sort out any problems you might be experiencing. That said, your S&W M&P is a pretty good pistol in its own right but comparing it to the Springfield is a little bit of an apples to oranges kind of comparison. As you point out the S&W is a modern pistol with a hundred years of design and engineering innovation compared to the Springfield. Nobody here is going to mind you making .45 cal. holes in things with a pistol you are completely satisfied with even if it wasn't designed by John Moses Browning. Look, if you are just completely dissatisfied with the whole experience box up that nasty old Springfield and send it to me and I'll find a good home for it. . . . . .

 

[Monkeybear]

Now that I've cleaned the 1911 a few times, I can reassemble it with few problems, but the 100 year old design just doesn't seem as convenient in this respect as my modern pistols.

Amen to that. Its easy once you do it a few times but other than the Walther P22 everything I have ever owned is easier to clean than a 1911. That said, I am in the market for a nice new 1911 so I hope no body thinks I am bashing them.


About the reliability factor, part of owning a 1911 is finding that magic combination thats gonna make your gun work. Stuff like GLOCKs, HKs, CZs and M&Ps just take factory mags and any factory ammo so long as its the right caliber. 1911s tend to work better with some mags and some ammo than others. Find the right combo(s) and they will usually turn reliable. This is just my understanding and experience so keep in mind that others will likely disagree.

 

[.45&TKD]

The 1911 is the "stick shift" of auto loaders. A little harder to be proficient and comfortable with, but well worth it if you find yourself in a "race" or a shoot out.

Properly maintaining, cleaning, lubricating, and adjusting the extractor tension on the 1911 are all more important. I think extractor tension is the most common problem with new 1911's and new 1911 owners, next followed by cheap factory mags.

My first handgun was a SA Fully Loaded and it drove me nuts with jams. I finally replaced the extractor with a Wilson Bullet Proof extractor and learned how to tune it and the problem was solved.

Years later all my go-to guns are still 1911's. I keep some polymer's because they are cheap and in case my 1911's get confiscated in a future SHTF or in case I need to hand out to family or friends in a TEOTWAWKI ; not because they are more reliable.

Regarding the wood grips: I actually prefer the rubber grips for that reason.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

To the 1911's credit, you have to consider that everybody and their dog makes one. Some are bound to be better than others, and in this way, the 1911 has really become a victim of its own success.

If a dozen different manufactures made a version of the Glock 21, the SIG P220, or the HK45, and all of them made their own little adjustments to the design to get it to stand out in a crowded market place, some of them wouldn't work, and there would be those out there that labeled the entire design as finicky and temperamental because of it.

There is nothing inherently picky about the 1911. The basic design is sound.

There is a pair of Springers in the family, and both have been smooth operators. My brother likes to tinker and has made some mods on his. My grandpa doesn't and has left his stock. No complaints from either.

 

[Bill_G]

stick with hardball or remmy golden saber and you should have no feeding problems. polish the feed ramp w/ some flitz. put some tetra gun grease on the rails.

cip mccormick mags are awesome for the SA 1911.

i sold my SA and got a FN 9mm. lost the cachet but now i have a great nightstand pistol!! it has never jammed from day 1.

 

[xsquidgator]

Ah. I kind of suspected what I hear you guys saying but it makes sense the way I've heard it here. It's going to take some fiddling and tuning and maintenance probably to get this thing humming.

It does seem clear to me now, I'd heard it before but didn't fully get it I guess, that a number of 1911s, especially the not-high-end ones, may not work straight out of the box without some fiddling. Until now I didn't realize what a help it is simply to have the feed ramp integral to the barrel! Thanks for the ideas re: what to experiment around with and so forth. After thinking about it overnight I'm guessing maybe a stronger recoil spring (and stouter loads to run it!) might be one direction to explore. May be an extractor after that? All kinds of spare parts I could switch out and try...
Don't get me wrong, I like 1911s and I like this one, but I now better appreciate my tupperware 45 also. At any rate it's the journey not the destination, right?

 

[Babalouie]

I am a uspsa/ipsc competitive shooter who shoots and reloads several thousand rounds a year. Its important to case gauge every round you reload. Out of every 100 rounds loaded at least one or two won't go in the case guage. (40S&W) You also have to clean and polish your cases in order to expect 100% reliability. That being said my Springer Trophy Match had a few failures in the first hundred rounds...I remember being real disappointed...this was about 15 years ago...but hoped it was a break in issue. It was and I've shot at least a few thousands rounds since without a failure of any kind.
As far as your preference for the M&P...its a great gun! I love our M&P 40...my son shoots it in uspsa. It would be a Sophies choice to chose our favorite!

 

[xsquidgator]

I am a uspsa/ipsc competitive shooter who shoots and reloads several thousand rounds a year. Its important to case gauge every round you reload. Out of every 100 rounds loaded at least one or two won't go in the case guage. (40S&W) You also have to clean and polish your cases in order to expect 100% reliability. That being said my Springer Trophy Match had a few failures in the first hundred rounds...I remember being real disappointed...this was about 15 years ago...but hoped it was a break in issue. It was and I've shot at least a few thousands rounds since without a failure of any kind.
As far as your preference for the M&P...its a great gun! I love our M&P 40...my son shoots it in uspsa. It would be a Sophies choice to chose our favorite!

Hmm, never occurred to me it could be a sizing issue. I'm a little doubtful of that in this case, b/c I've never really had any FTF issues in my M&P using rounds from the same lot as in the 1911. I tumble clean and polish all my cases, and in the last few months I stepped up the clean/polish thing so that the cases look pretty clean and shiny I think before I start the reloading process on them. I could consider getting a case gage though, couldn't hurt... The more I think about it the more I think it's a breaking in kind of thing that perhaps some polishing or smoothing will help, and perhaps later also a stronger recoil spring. I noticed the slide action seems kind of "grabby", that is, I just kind of "feel" that the slide is rubbing on the frame even though I've oiled it. Perhaps the easiest thing to try would be some kind of grease first where the slide meets the frame, then perhaps run a dremel buffing wheel over the feed ramp. I noticed on Springfield Armory's site the "mil spec" 1911 offered polished internals whereas the GI model did not, as well as a few other things.

 

[Babalouie]

I agree, its probably a break in issue. You can take the barrel out of the GI and use it as a case guage. If you get another ftf take the round and check it later. I reload 40S&W mostly, both my son and I shoot that round in uspsa... Most of the rounds that don't gauge are those that have been shot out of a Glock with an unsupported barrel. I don't know if 45acp out of Glocks does the same thing. If you reload its worth it to get a case guage, if you shoot competitively its essential.

 

[Marshall]

xs,

I understand your feelings, really. When you buy non-1911 autoloaders and they work from day one it's tough to find the love for any 1911 that does not. Well, it was only a $500.00 1911. The problem with that is, so was the M&P, the XD and the Glock.

Maybe I expect too much? When I buy something new, I expect it to work. Period. I don't have to polish the injectors on my car to keep it from dying. I don't have to fine tune the brakes to get them to stop me. It's new, it should work. My other semi-auto's work from the factory without having to do anything to them. Silly me, I seem to think a 1911 should as well, especially when the money spent is the same, or even more in many cases.

Some people get 1911's from the factory that work 100% from day one, I would expect mine to be one of those.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Most of the rounds that don't gauge are those that have been shot out of a Glock with an unsupported barrel.

For the record, the factory barrel on the Glock offers case support comparable to the case support offered by many non-match 1911 barrels.

 

[Sniper X]

First and formost, get a couple of quality mags, chip mc cormick's and get a set of pebbled bubber grips and go back to the range and re-evaluate that fine 1911. I'll bet the reliability problem goes away, and you have a better feel on the gun. A lot of prople hate heavily checkered grips, thay are just to harsh on some hands. Good luck and great choice. Of course you may have also liked on of springers loaded series a little better.....

 

[1911Tuner]

Upgrade a recent Springfield GI Mil-Spec? Nah. Whatever floats yer boat.

A nice Remington Rand or a Colt...May the Woodpecker family from hell nest upon your rooftop.

A Union Switch and Signal? I'll dispatch the Warthogs myself, and dance gleefully upon the smoldering ruins of your abode.

Hey! It's your gun. Have fun!

 

[trbon8r]

The problem is the Springfield GI is a low rent 1911. I can say this with confidence because I have one. The internals, feed ramp, and other parts are just rougher than you will find on your typical American made 1911 like a Colt, Les Baer, or Wilson. But for the difference in price, one should expect such things. The exterior on my gun has little if any polishing, and an overall rough appearance. I still keep meaning to take my gun apart and do some work on the thumb safety to make it a little smoother.

There is little or no hand fitting that goes into the base Springfields. They are just thrown together to meet the need for a cheap entry level 1911. Thanks to the relatively tight tolerances of modern CNC machining, most of them work fine as mine does, but a substantial number do not. Unfortunately 500 bucks doesn't buy much in the 1911 world. I got mine for a price I couldn't refuse ($425 shipped) so I picked it up. It is an ok gun, but not as nice as my Colt, and miles away from my Les Baer.

The reality is that if you want a top flight 1911, 500 bucks isn't going to get you there. Springfield is trying to take an all steel gun which was designed to utilize a certain degree of hand fitting, and sell it for a price competitive with low cost plastic pistols. They are doing this while eliminating much of the hand fitting, quality control, and skilled labor. The results are predictable. As I said, most guns will work fine, but a substantial number will need to go back for some work.

By the way, forget about "tuning" the gun or any of that. Send it back to Springfield and make them fix it. Once you get a working gun, if you want to modify it, that's up to you. Don't start chasing your tail and guessing at what is wrong with it. You are liable to have more problems than you have now, and a damaged bank account to show for it. Good luck!

 

[Old Fuff]

I wouldn't care to depend on one of the currently made 1911 pistols either, although I have no doubt that I could rebuild one that was satisfactory. But by the time I got done I would have spent enough to buy the genuine article.

Fortunately they're not many, or any, junk-grade copies of Glock's, SIG's, Beretta's, H&K's, Ruger's and other quality service pistols on the market.

Can't say that about 1911's...

 

[Walkalong]

I must be a lucky SOB, cause all but 1 of mine run like a top, and with good mags that one is at least 99%. (100% with many bullet styles)

In all fairness, I have had one that did not run well, but it had been "worked on". I finally figured out the gremlin and it was running well when I sold it to someone who was told the history and was glad to have it (Kimber Series 1 gun)

I understand the problem and have no dought many POS 1911's exist. It is a credit to the design that there are not more problems with them with every Tom, Dick, & Harry making them, often with crappy parts. :banghead:

 

[Beagle-zebub]

How does one "tune" the extractor?

 

[trbon8r]

I wouldn't care to depend on one of the currently made 1911 pistols either, although I have no doubt that I could rebuild one that was satisfactory.

Isn't that a little extreme? Colt, Les Baer, Wilson, Ed Brown, all make a good reliable gun you can depend on.

Besides, not everyone wants to pay $1500 for a worn mixmaster GI gun that will probably need some work, and lacks many of the features most folks like in the modern day 1911 type pistols. The prices I see for original GI 1911s are insane. For that same $1500 you can buy a new Baer or get a lightly customized newer Colt for the same amount of money.

 

[JoeSlomo]

I am 2 and 1 with 1911's.

The "wins"...

Springfield A1 (purchased vic 96')
-shot everything I put in her right out of the box. Reliable as the sunrise.
-used for range, competition, and carry
-10K rounds or so

Springfield mil spec ultra compact (purchased about a year after the 5")
-Ditto as above, though I haven't put as many rounds through her.

The "loss"...

Kimber custom TLE / RL II (bought this year vic Feb 08')
-teething problems out of the box. Poopy extractor angles and tension, fixed by a competent smith while putting on a fiber optic front sight post.
-have put about 400 rounds through her since with no issue's.
-range gun and CDP / single stack gun for competition.

I like the 1911 because I can make it MINE more than most other auto's.

And the trigger is sooooo sweet...

 

[Old Fuff]

If one follows the posts in this and other forums concerning current 1911 platforms you will find endless posts from recent buyers that are having functional problems – that seldom show up when examining the performance record of other popular service pistols, or for that matter USGI or Colt commercial pistols made up through the 1960’s.

Most of these newer 1911 counterfeits supposedly need an extended period of “breaking in,” different aftermarket magazines rather then those supplied by the maker, substitution of a new extractor and possibly other parts, polishing this or that, and in particular the frame and barrel ramps, different recoil and other springs – endless tinkering before they can be considered ready for duty.

To this I say “NUTS! ….

The reason for this sad situation is because the makers have no inspection or testing worthy of mention. They make pistols that are excessively tight, and have convinced buyers that it is their job to finish what that they (the maker) should have, and do it at their (the buyers) expense.

Do you think that Glock, SIG, Beretta, H&K, Ruger, etc. have any such requirements? Do those that have just bought a Glock (or the other mentioned pistols) have to run out and buy a batch of aftermarket magazines, change out parts, and break-in their new pistols? For that matter do you think that those of us that were fortunate enough to buy the older Colt Government Models and USGI 1911A1 pistols when they were available had to go through any of the pure B.S. associated with the guns being made today???

Can you explain why today’s makers can’t turn out a simple service pistol that’s made to print, reliable as those that were formally made in large numbers, and offered legendary reliability - and not charge a ridiculous price for it?

Of course some of the new guns work, but the fact is when compared to others the percentage that are lemons is way too high – and far higher then they should be.

In the opening post, xsquidgator explained that he’d like to trust the 1911 pistol, but under the circumstances he’d turned to something else, partly because of the questionable reliability of today’s makes that have at best, spotty records.

It’s a sad truth, but it is the truth. See the link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=357373

 

[xsquidgator]

The problem is the Springfield GI is a low rent 1911. I can say this with confidence because I have one. The internals, feed ramp, and other parts are just rougher than you will find on your typical American made 1911 like a Colt, Les Baer, or Wilson. But for the difference in price, one should expect such things. The exterior on my gun has little if any polishing, and an overall rough appearance. I still keep meaning to take my gun apart and do some work on the thumb safety to make it a little smoother.

There is little or no hand fitting that goes into the base Springfields. They are just thrown together to meet the need for a cheap entry level 1911. Thanks to the relatively tight tolerances of modern CNC machining, most of them work fine as mine does, but a substantial number do not. Unfortunately 500 bucks doesn't buy much in the 1911 world. I got mine for a price I couldn't refuse ($425 shipped) so I picked it up. It is an ok gun, but not as nice as my Colt, and miles away from my Les Baer.

The reality is that if you want a top flight 1911, 500 bucks isn't going to get you there. Springfield is trying to take an all steel gun which was designed to utilize a certain degree of hand fitting, and sell it for a price competitive with low cost plastic pistols. They are doing this while eliminating much of the hand fitting, quality control, and skilled labor. The results are predictable. As I said, most guns will work fine, but a substantial number will need to go back for some work.

By the way, forget about "tuning" the gun or any of that. Send it back to Springfield and make them fix it. Once you get a working gun, if you want to modify it, that's up to you. Don't start chasing your tail and guessing at what is wrong with it. You are liable to have more problems than you have now, and a damaged bank account to show for it. Good luck!

Interesting... I'm starting to suspect this. But, I've only had two days of being able to shoot it and breaking in. I better appreciate now that it's an entry level 1911, and that's ok, since I got what I think is a good deal on it and this ought to be a good way for me to find out if I like the 1911. Understanding of course some fiddling may be required since I'm sure it was mass produced on a CNC machine without much if any handfitting.

The good news is that I don't think there are any extractor issues, that is I haven't had any FTE issues. Just the FTF, or rather, going maybe only halfway into battery some of the time with rounds that will chamber and aren't tight. All of this is just with the single SA magazine that came with it, the only one I have so far. My uneducated hunch is that it's a fitting or polishing issue, the slide feels just a little gritty or grabby as it goes back and forth.

I've already learned a few things though... I'd heard all these internet stories about fussy 1911s and people saying that's bunk, at least now I know those particular stories can be true! I'll look at the glass as being half full and try to enjoy the process of smoothing the action out and improving it's reliability, hopefully without a trip to the factory.

 

[Pat-inCO]

The "works reliably, straight out of the box" 11911s start at about twice what you paid for yours. Entry level guns require a LOT of tuning, fiddling, adjustment, etc. before they function smoothly. If you don't mind fiddling, you can have a lot of fun along the way. If all you want is feed it and shoot, it'll cost a lot more.

 

[Monkeybear]

The "works reliably, straight out of the box" 11911s start at about twice what you paid for yours. Entry level guns require a LOT of tuning, fiddling, adjustment, etc. before they function smoothly. If you don't mind fiddling, you can have a lot of fun along the way. If all you want is feed it and shoot, it'll cost a lot more.

You have got to be kidding me.

 

[tinroad37e]

I don't agree with the statement above either (I use to). I bought a Kimber Custom II 1911 two years ago and it was the biggest piece of crap. It would never feed or eject reliably. I bought an Ed Brown 1911 and it was perfect, so I use to think you had to pay a lot of money for a reliable 1911. Later, I bought a Springfield Loaded and it's extremely reliable and well made, just not as accurate as the Brown. My 1911 illness guided to me to an even cheaper model, the Rock Island 1911. For $395 it has functioned perfectly; I'm just not a big fan of cast 1911 frames. I've heard good reviews about the S&W, Sig, Taurus, and Para Ordinance 1911 models as well. I don't care for the looks of them and the external extractors. I no longer have the Brown. I sold it to buy 3 more pistols.