Store bought self defense ammunition

QED said:

The referenced incident was in 2012; it's doubtful that S&B made major changes in design of that 115 grain hollow point since then.

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Ok I thought you meant the famous 1986 fbi shooting.

FL-NC said:

I don't overthink it. A HP from an American major brand like Win, Rem, Hornady, Federal- that functions reliably in the gun in question. And lots of practice with cheap ammo.

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Ditto. I pick a hollowpoint off a shelf where i have more choices than i care to count. I don’t think about it much. Currently sig v-crown in my p-365 and my 1911. I think i have hornady american handgunner in my .38’s.

Hartkopf said:

Ok I thought you meant the famous 1986 fbi shooting.

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Although also a 115 grain JHP was involved in well-known incident in '86 , it seems that it was a Winchester silvertip JHP that was the issue, not a S&B JHP. Incidentally, the Win. JHP in '86 event penetrated better, but still inadequately; according to Fackler, 8".

Hartkopf said:

One shot of the S&B with denim & fabric was a full pass through with no expansion The other in bare gel yawed or tumbled and left a crazy big wound track. Technically, neither expanded View attachment 880923

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Maybe the lead didn't expand, but that bent up copper jacket would leave a fearsome wound ! Looks like the most effective hollowpoint, EVER!

Dibbs said:

Maybe the lead didn't expand, but that bent up copper jacket would leave a fearsome wound ! Looks like the most effective hollowpoint, EVER!

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Right it was a crazy nasty wound tract in the gel. But it’s more like the jacket separated and malfunctioned. If we knew they all did that consistently it would be worth looking at. The other round showed zero signs of expansion.

BTW I’ve seen a 22lr Velocitor shot out of a Ruger revolver that yawed or tumbled or something, and left a very similar wound tract.
I don’t think we can count on a 22lr doing that every time though.

Might be worth somebody testing the S&B because those rounds are definitely cheap. I bet they’re not going to be consistent at all.

All members that question the logic of "not" carrying handloads NEED TO READ this thread...
It takes a few pages, but the information is fascinating. ..

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/why-jhp.634817/

Interesting thread. One of my HD guns is loaded with Remington 158gr SWCHP rounds and my nightstand gun(32 mag) is loaded with my handloads. My truck gun is a SW9VE loaded with Remington 115gr hollow points I loaded myself. I think it was the poster @5pins that tested these bullets and they gave great performance for an inexpensive factory load. Matter of fact I just looked at Midway and a 100rd box of factory loads sells for $33. I am thinking of ordering a couple hundred of them if I can't find some at Academy.

But my main question is this. If handloads are so taboo what about ammo bought at the gunshow? My dad bought several boxes of 38s and 357 loads that I ended up with after he gave me all his guns. Those for all intents are about the same as my handloads. But they are loaded by a licensed ammo crafter made in what ever factory (garage) he works out of. So would those loads be a liability problem if used?

I haven't been to a GS in years and really have no idea if anyone still sells loaded ammo. I am guessing thats still done. It used to be common back in the 1980s and 1990s. I guess I need to get out more.

Yes, it’s still sold at gunshows. I bought some .303 brit several years ago, and i know of another company that sets up at gunshows. That company makes very, very good ammunition.

My preferred rounds were the Federal Tactical Bonded:

9mm - 135 +P
.40 S&W - 165 +P
.45 ACP - 230 +P


They seemed to expand no matter how short the barrel and get good penetration no matter how long. That said Federal has discontinued that line so I guess I will look for something else before long.

.38 Special Snubbie I really like the Federal HST Micro 130 gr. it seems to work and has reasonable recoil. It's a +P but doesn't really feel like it.

Cheap Stuff:
9mm Winchester White Box Personal Protection 115 gr JHP (Under 4". Tends to overexpand in longer barrels).

9mm Remington Green/White Box 115 JHP (Works well 4" and up. Expansion can be problematic below that).

357 Terms said:

All members that question the logic of "not" carrying handloads NEED TO READ this thread...
It takes a few pages, but the information is fascinating. ..

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/why-jhp.634817/

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This—

https://www.glocktalk.com/a/the-peculiar-problem-of-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.18/

—written by our own Spats McGee is also offers a very good perspective on why carrying handloads for self-defense is not a good idea.

I use HST's in both 38sp +p and 45acp for carry/SD. One of the reasons for using these is it was easy to make reloads that shoot to the same POI with similar recoil.

Most modern JHP handgun ammonium will preform good.
But if you have a gun with a shot barrel, you mileage will very. Some need a little more velocity to to open up.

GunnyUSMC said:

But if you have a gun with a shot barrel, you mileage will very. Some need a little more velocity to to open up.

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Agree. I've watched a lot of videos of premium HP ammo being tested, and while a lot of the modern stuff really does well, sometimes in short barrel guns, it tends to not open up as widely as I prefer. I don't shoot much +p ammo, but I do carry it in my small concealed carry guns for this reason. A little extra gas on the petal MIGHT help. And if it doesn't it won't matter to me in the end either way, because I've either stopped the threat, and the bullet worked regardless of expanded diameter, or I didn't stop the threat and I'm dead.

[QUOTE="481,


—written by our own Spats McGee is also offers a very good perspective on why carrying handloads for self-defense is not a good idea.


Spats Mcgee, Massad Ayoob, Frank Ettin all contribute to this conversation.
This thread is a discussion/debate.
Not a single opinion.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/why-jhp.634817/

357 Terms said:

[QUOTE="481,


—written by our own Spats McGee is also offers a very good perspective on why carrying handloads for self-defense is not a good idea.


Spats Mcgee, Massad Ayoob, Frank Ettin all contribute to this conversation.
This thread is a discussion/debate.
Not a single opinion.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/why-jhp.634817/

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I never said it was (a single opinion). I simply offered an article with relevance to the topic for those who might wish to consider it. If you don't like it, you are free to move on.

And even in a full size duty gun, I like to test expansion. All 40S&W, all shot out of a Glock 22. Denim was kryptonite for the top row of ammo. They never one time opened up with 2 layers of denim. The other well known rounds in the bottom two rows opened up every single time through 2 layers of denim + 2 layers of T shirt. (and also just 2 layers denim - no T shirt)

Hartkopf said:

View attachment 881112 And even in a full size duty gun, I like to test expansion. All 40S&W, all shot out of a Glock 22. Denim was kryptonite for the top row of ammo. They never one time opened up with 2 layers of denim. The other well known rounds in the bottom two rows opened up every single time through 2 layers of denim + 2 layers of T shirt. (and also just 2 layers denim - no T shirt)

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The ones in the top row that were adversely affected by two layers of denim; are those Golden Sabers?

481 said:

The ones in the top row that were adversely affected by two layers of denim; are those Golden Sabers?

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Middle row is Golden Sabers and they expanded into 45 ACP territory most times, with pretty good penetration too.
Bottom row is Gold Dots and they are what we thought they were.
Top row is Ranger Ts.

Of course they were designed and manufactured by professionals with modern equipment, and I performed back yard testing so nobody should put much emphasis on my results. I do know which ammo I won't be carrying in my gun though.

I don't care for premium self defense ammo, I don't think you need to pay $1 a round to get a good hollow point. My preference in 9mm is Winchester White Box, but that stuff is getting expensive because everyone has learned it's not crap. You won't believe this, but Winchester Bonded .40 is actually cheaper than the 9mm ammo is and that .40 was LE ammo and is street proven.

.45 I don't know much about, I look to see what's cheapest and even the Winchester WB stuff is about 75 cents a round, Remington UMC JHP may work, I'm not sure, I haven't seen or heard much about it, but the 9mm stuff does work.

It's .380 and .38 Special where you have to pay the price to get a good bullet. I like Inceptor for .380 because hollow points and .380 aren't a good match. For .38 Spl, I like Hornady Critical Defense. Anything under .380 it's best to use FMJ.

I’m a Gold Dot man myself, they seem to be the most reliable in my experience. Reliable as in in feeding, extracting, and expanding.
I personally wouldn’t use any handgun bullet for defense that wasn’t bonded, but as you know opinions vary.

And if no one has recommended it you should check out the link below, some stuff all over lucky gunner labs.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

DeepSouth said:

I’m a Gold Dot man myself, they seem to be the most reliable in my experience. Reliable as in in feeding, extracting, and expanding.
I personally wouldn’t use any handgun bullet for defense that wasn’t bonded, but as you know opinions vary.

And if no one has recommended it you should check out the link below, some stuff all over lucky gunner labs.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

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I use to think the same about bonded, but I've seen some bullets that weren't bonded that worked fine, mostly these were Remington Golden Sabers. So long as the velocity is cranked up by a longer barrel or there's a hard barrier between you and the target, unbonded JHP's should work fine.

9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 +P

40 S&W Federal 180 HST

45 don’t have any modern ammo since I never carry a 45 anymore. Still have a few boxes of 230 Hydra Shok.

10mm If I carried for SD it would be Winchester 175 Silvertip, which I still think is the best defensive ammo other than maybe some of the boutique rounds. 10mm is the only cartridge where I carry handloads, but they are 200gr solid flat points for woods carry in areas with nuisance bears.