Shooting at Texas Church Leaves Two Dead and One Injured, Gunman Shot By Armed Member

Can't wait to see how long the incident is on the news, and how the outcome is treated. Considering what's going on in Virginia, this is fodder, especially for gun owners.

I count ~2 seconds from first shot until third and last....

Black gentleman closest to shooter is deacon and appears to be holding the holding communion tray. He is engaged by perp. and either freezes with disbelief or remains cool as a cucumber when the perp. pulls out the shotty (so as to not provoke?) The first shot is initiated in response to what seems like a long drawn out slow draw of the security team guy.... but in reality it's hardly 2 seconds. His problem is that he's seated, so he has to stand up, clear cover and draw... and he's swinging his handgun to the target when he's hit by the perps fist shot gun blast.

Game changer has hand on holstered gun and makes the third and final shot almost instantly.

I'm counting upwards of 7 congregants who run forward with drawn handguns. For those not familiar with the setting, church people tend to know each other and be responsible..... which explains why there's no mistaken identity or errant discharge.

The murder was wearing a big sign that said, "Something's not right with me!", and although there was attention on him, (every armed person was in the vicinity) it was more like piqued interest than alarm. I realize a church is supposed to be inviting and welcoming to the public, but if you are a sheepdog, those hackles twinging should be an indicator. If Isabella Arreola's hackles were up just from sitting next to him, so much more should have been the security team's.

Yes, they are rare, but incidents like this are why I carry in church every time I attend.

@entropy my thoughts exactly, even with the blurry video from distance one could see something was off with the guy. It should have at least had all security on high alert towards him.

It’s too bad for smaller churches with only one service that security has to be distracted from the worship and teaching. At least with a larger church security can work one service and attend another.

It’s good when video like this can be seen as unfortunate of an event as it is, but it’s a good reminder of what can happen.

SSN Vet said:

"A woman who was seated near the gunman said something seemed off from the moment the gunman entered the church. Besides never seeing the man in church before, he also appeared to have a beard and a wig that looked fake. “I should have listened to my gut,” Isabel Arreola, 38, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. “While he was there, I couldn’t sing. I couldn’t pray. There was just something not right about him."

I highly recommend the book "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin de Becker. This woman's statement perfectly illustrates what the book so well articulates.....

When you know, you know....

Fake beard & wig (see it fly off his head when he get's popped), wearing a large bulky jacket when no body else is.

I think the security team read the tea leaves correctly and were keeping their eyes on this turd, but were apparently way too charitable in giving him the benefit of the doubt (perhaps out of a motive to be kind to the poor lost soul seeking redemption).

Better to initiate the contact yourself and in doing so seize the initiative. Closing the distance while the suspected BG is still concealing his intent and saying "Hi there, is there anything I can do to help you" said with an extended hand will very quickly give you a lot of information about them.... Sitting down next to him and asking "Why are you wearing that silly get up?, are you hiding something?"

Notice he doesn't draw the shot gun and fire rapidly... it actually takes him time to stand up and pull it out. If someone was right on top of him, it would have turned into a tussle and could have perhaps achieved a different outcome.

Again, when you know, you know.... ACT ON THAT KNOWLEDGE!

There are several constructive things that could have been done to disrupt this premeditated attack short of drawing on the guy.

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I agree that aggressive profiling may have prevented this shooting, but citizens are limited when contacting a suspect.

A tactic our safety team has discussed is someone rushing the shooter to draw fire with the other team members take the shot.

Don’t know if it was intentional but this is what in effect happened when guy stood up and drew.

My take away, worth what you paid for it, is that the poor guy who was attempting to draw, had to clear a jacket and an untucked shirt. That is not an optimal concealment. Having two items to manipulate is not a good idea. Practicing a draw from concealment is a good idea. IDPA matches are good for this, if you use your carry gear. I do.

The good guy was obviously well trained as the reports of his experience indicate. I again say that if you are going to be serious, as in a security team, you need more that square range plinking.

Though I do not participate on the security team at church (long story) I'm familiar with some of their practices and know several who are on the schedule.

Our team starts in the parking lots... they have multiple men who wave hello to and direct people to the available spots... this is somewhat necessary as the lots fill up and need to be densely packed, but it also provides eyes on everyone who comes on the property. These guys all have radios and in theory "could" alert those inside at the doors to a suspicious looking BG.

Then there are men at each door, who stand back and watch, while the ushers open the doors and greet people. And there is a presence monitoring the counter where people drop the kiddies off for Sunday school and nursery. Finally, there are men standing in the back of the sanctuary during the services.

We are fortunate to have a local police chief leading the crew and many men on the rotating schedule. I'd estimate there are 8 on duty each service and more on holidays.

How many carry? My guess is half.

Then there's guys like me packing in the pews.

Then there are guys like me, packing in the pew

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Yep, I'm a pew packer as well.

I agree with the comments that point out the need to practice on speed very deliberately, but also to practice at longer ranges than 7 yards. Distances are not always going to be ideal, and ultimately simply having a holstered gun on your waist isn't going to do you much good if you can't access it and bring it into effective action quickly.

I don't know that we need to analyze the draw times and shot times TOO closely though. As noted, there were some delays that seemed odd, but we aren't going to know what was going through the armed "security" guy's mind. Distractions and other factor, not to mention shock undoubtedly came into play. I do find it interesting that the guy who ended the attack put his hand on his gun, and then didn't draw right away, but he may have been concerned that he was in the line of sight of the perp, and would be shot first in the instance of drawing a gun. Whether it was a self preservation thing, or a tactical decision, it seems given the circumstances it makes some sense, or at least I won't criticize him for the delay.

A few years ago I ran the sound board at my girlfriend's church, and it was a very small congregation of misfit nondenominational folks. Good people mostly. The proprietors are still my friends today, but they are basically victims in training. They live under the notion that good intentions will keep them safe. The sound booth was all the way to the back, but what drove me crazy was that there were large windows facing the alter in the lobby, and the sound booth was right next to the door entering the main hall. So basically I sat all the way behind everyone with my back to the door like a sitting duck. Given the passive hippie types who came in, I am guessing I was one of, if not the only armed person there. I spent a lot of time thinking about my response if someone came in shooting. Unfortunately there was also a very unstable man who came there and exhibited unnerving behavior, and who was heavily medicated. He was also fixated on my girlfriend in a heavy sort of way, which I feel made us targets. Basically every week I was sitting and trying to manage the sound board and watch him closely, as I would be the first responder if he started something in the middle of service. Then one day he stopped showing up, and my nerves were even more stretched. I was just waiting. Fortunately, and very thankfully, he just moved on and stopped coming.

I know that all seems irrelevant compared to events in Texas yesterday, but I guess my point is that a congregation, or any place where people gather needs to have a plan, and they need people designated for different roles. This church did, and they managed to stop a threat and limit the harm caused pretty effectively. My heart goes out to them, and I'm thankful this gentleman was able to do what needed doing.

I think it's great also that so many armed citizens got in there and tried to help, even if the threat was already over.

Stay safe everyone.

The hero's name is Jack Wilson. He just happens to be a firearms instructor...
https://dailysounder.com/firearms-instructor-hero-church-gunman/

https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1211666564598181891

Sig 229 in 357 Sig. Seems effective

460Shooter said:

I think it's great also that so many armed citizens got in there and tried to help, even if the threat was already over.

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"Sailing to the sound of the guns" is admirable, but I would hope security team members were detailed to cover the doors, not all killers are solo.

The change in state law really isn't important. It was always possible to carry in houses of worship in recent times. They had to post the appropriate legally defined signage to forbid signage. The new law just clarified that for people who couldn't understand the law. It is still misinterpreted that TX had a blanket ban on carry in houses of worship.

This may be nitpicking, but if you watch the video, all armed folks seem to converge on the downed shooter. I would suggest a security team designated some folks to scan for second assailants as soon as possible.

Mental note gleaned from the video: work on drawing faster.

Jim Watson said:

"Sailing to the sound of the guns" is admirable, but I would hope security team members were detailed to cover the doors, not all killers are solo.

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That's true, and I think that should be part of a planned response with delegated roles in place. Armed church goers not part of the team would not necessarily think or have a coordinated response to such an issue or possibility.

I've seen many different shooting videos and one thing they all have in common is how fast it can all go down. To me, when I'm carrying a gun, although I realize the chances of needing to use it are astronomically slim to none, I stay alert at all times. I'm glad the bad guy here is down (why won't the media say much of who he is? I've heard he had quite the criminal past), but you can see the first guy shot and killed took a very long time to draw (try to draw?) and wasn't very inconspicuous. You have to draw quickly and if possible, do so without drawing worlds of attention to doing so, I halfway think this guy was shot because it's so obvious he's going for a holstered weapon, very slowly, so the bad guy took him out first.

Head shots will turn their switch off quick, they literally shut down and the body just goes limp and drops. Body shots don't typically drop them unless it hits the spine, so a person can very much still be a threat because sometimes they don't even realized they've been shot, at least not immediately. I'm glad this guy used his Sig P229 in 357 SIG to end it so well, he was pretty slow in drawing but his accuracy was spot on. I guess my point is that if you're going to carry, stay alert and practice to where you can draw quickly and get on target fast because in real life, it can go down very quickly.

ATLDave said:

A few observations:

1) Somehow, multiple CC’ers did not get confused and start shooting one another. The prospect of the “chaos” of an active shooter situation is often used by anti gunners or even a lot of LEOs to argue that armed citizens would only make things worse.
2). Sadly, the first gentleman murdered gives an object lesson in the efficacy of a slow draw when someone has a gun pointed at you. Slow and smooth just isn’t fast enough in some situations. If you don’t work on speed, don’t try to pull a gun.
3). The shot that ended the horror was hardly “bad breath distance.” Just shooting at 7 yards isn’t enough for all self-defense circumstances.

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To be fair to that argument, this looks like a small congregation and most of the people inside knew each other. The members of the security team almost certainly would have been aware of each other and where each was positioned. The perpetrator was also probably immediately focused on when he came in because he was new and unfamiliar. This is a much different situation than an active shooter at a public place. Much less confusion.

B_Li_Ber_Tar_Ian said:

Sig 229 in 357 Sig. Seems effective

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That's what I read in citzenfreepress

.357 Sig. P229. 125 gr at about 1450 fps. Dropped the perp like a bag of dirt

shafter said:

To be fair to that argument, this looks like a small congregation and most of the people inside knew each other. The members of the security team almost certainly would have been aware of each other and where each was positioned. The perpetrator was also probably immediately focused on when he came in because he was new and unfamiliar. This is a much different situation than an active shooter at a public place. Much less confusion.

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Well, this is hardly the only active shooter situation where the people involved are mostly going to know each other. Workplaces are common sites (well, common for a rare occurrence) for mass shootings, and most people there will know each other. Churches are also comparatively common. There are certainly mass shootings that take place in stranger-dominated environments, but this is hardly an outlier.

Additionally, one large, well-lit room helps a lot. I've always thought it wouldn't be that hard to target the active shooter in that kind of situation - it's probably the guy shooting women and children and old men with their hands up. Put the active shooter in a space with lots of rooms and hallways and, yeah, situational awareness is going to be much harder to come by.

Of course, when SA is lacking, the basically-universal outcome has been that the CC'ers just don't shoot at all... rather than the chaotic hurricane of lead that anti-gunners love to predict.

shafter said:

To be fair to that argument, this looks like a small congregation and most of the people inside knew each other. The members of the security team almost certainly would have been aware of each other and where each was positioned. The perpetrator was also probably immediately focused on when he came in because he was new and unfamiliar. This is a much different situation than an active shooter at a public place. Much less confusion.

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Typically Church of Christ congregations are between 80 and 200, some more some less so yes, people do know each other. Kids would still be in the sanctuary during communion (Lord's Supper). Security is taken seriously and typically 4-7 people do carry though maybe 3-4 do so as part of the unofficial security team (usually LE, Military). Average age of typical congregant is probably 55 Not including children. There are 2 main entrances typically both are open during service, the first leads to the foyer which has the Pastor's office and a separate room for nursing mothers, second set of doors leads to the sanctuary. The other side leads directly to the gathering room where meals are eaten and meetings take place and leads to the classrooms, nurseries, storage, kitchens, bathrooms, church office and sanctuary. This is where I always worried an attack would take place because doors were not watched and many times unlocked.
Church of Christ is very careful to be politically correct and they will have to change that attitude somehow but I doubt they will. I'm sure right now they are offering up prayers for the dead and wounded and thankful that Jesus saved them and created a miracle for his believers. I'm also certain that the Pastor and Deacons will meet to discuss how to better protect themselves but will fall just short of changing much. They are lucky that this was the work of one person and not a dynamic dual like the Jewish attacks recently in Monsey NY (2 perps), Jewish NJ Bakery (Husband and wife) or the San Bernadino attack (Husband and wife).
If this was a false flag the Shockwave will become an SBS instead of an AOW.
The reasoning will be, just like bump stocks, who needs such a weapon except to commit mass murder. I can also see them trying to outlaw Pistol grips on long guns and requiring tube plugs to minimize capacity.
Might this have been a personal grudge and not Antifa or False Flag?
Many a warring couple disagree on type of church, or degree of involvement, especially if the newly baptized spends too much time on church or become obsessed. I've seen couple's break up over this.

Even if it is not false flag (unlikely), they could go the way of the bump stock. The AR pistols are tenuous also. When one of those show up in a rampage, the demand to ban them will be extreme.

Supposedly, the NRA claims that they convinced Donald J. Trump just to ban bump stocks after Las Vegas, as they say the Congress was going to ban all modern sporting rifles (ahem) with either a veto proof majority or DJT happily going along with it.

SSN Vet said:

"A woman who was seated near the gunman said something seemed off from the moment the gunman entered the church. Besides never seeing the man in church before, he also appeared to have a beard and a wig that looked fake. “I should have listened to my gut,” Isabel Arreola, 38, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. “While he was there, I couldn’t sing. I couldn’t pray. There was just something not right about him."

I highly recommend the book "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin de Becker. This woman's statement perfectly illustrates what the book so well articulates.....

When you know, you know....

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So many people get into trouble ( or die) because they talk themselves into ignoring something they shouldn't.

SSN Vet said:

For those not familiar with the setting, church people tend to know each other and be responsible..... which explains why there's no mistaken identity or errant discharge.

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That's all fine and well , but the maroon shirt guy who made his way down the aisle with his weapon pointed in the general direction of the downed perp - thus fanning a bunch of people with the muzzle while probably hyped on adrenaline - really scared me. One errant twitch and the tragedy multiplies.

I remember a conversation here about 3 (4,5?) years back in which I advocated church carry , even if it flew in the face of "house rules" posted by a liberal clergyman I was dealing with at the time. (I eventually opted to a different parish) Based on my recollection of opinions expressed at that time I'd have to say that attitudes have moved significantly since then , shifted well towards being prepared.

Waveski said:

I remember a conversation here about 3 (4,5?) years back in which I advocated church carry , even if it flew in the face of "house rules" posted by a liberal clergyman I was dealing with at the time. (I eventually opted to a different parish) Based on my recollection of opinions expressed at that time I'd have to say that attitudes have moved significantly since then , shifted well towards being prepared.

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Another factor on deciding to carry in a church or other locale may be any post-event support activity you have, whether insurance, legal coverage, or expert testimony support. Marty Hayes at the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network, which provides post-event support but is not an insurance program, recently made it clear that if a member of ACLDN is carrying in violation of the law at the time of a firearm defense incident, the ACLDN will not provide support to the member. Some states make any carry in a church illegal. Others make it illegal if the church notifies people that guns are prohibited. Here in Arkansas those with Enhanced CCL can carry in a church, unless the church has posted signs or otherwise notified folks.

I agree, a decision to change congregations may well be the right decision.