Red dot or irons

Lots of dry fire draws, and then about 500 rounds of live fire in my case. Had to do the drawing OWB and slow, my club's rules are " no fast draw, and no CCW on the range."

Derek Zeanah said:

About how long did it take to switch your brain over from looking for the front sight, to just focusing on the target?

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That's easy and quick, training yourself to present the firearm so the dot comes up on the target is more of a process, but dry fire in the evenings goes a long ways towards developing the skill.

Styx said:

I use them all. Some pistols have irons, and some red dots and night sights installed.

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same here!

The closest poll choice, for me, was the final choice, that I started on irons, but am considering the red dot. In actuality, I originally tested the concept with the green triangle RMR, on a Glock MOS, and liked it enough to have acquired a frame mount for using an Aimpoint Micro on a Glock 17. That project was set aside when I acquired a G45 slide, milled for the Aimpoint ACRO, which I have yet to truly stress-test with massive amounts of ammo. So, I am past the point of merely “considering,” but, have not yet started carrying a red-dot-equipped handgun.

I also just took delivery of a scope mount, found pre-owned on the evil bay, made to accommodate Weaver-type rings, to fit my 6” Ruger Security Six. I may see if a decent electronic mount/adapter may fit the Weaver-pattern slots, without resulting in an overly-high line-of-sight over the bore axis.

Notably, I think of a red-dot-equipped handgun as more of a “bag gun,” than something I would wear concealed, at belt level, under a typical cover garment. I remain open-minded, on the matter, but when high-profile iron sights, or the outside corner of chunky, blocky Glock slide, are already what is most likely to “print” against my cover garment, I would rather not add yet more bulk to the upper rear area of a handgun. On the other hand, a small backpack, such as the most excellent Hill People Gear Tarahumara, blends well, in urban or rural areas. (To be clear, I do not believe that one’s only gun should be in a bag!)


Another way to tote a “bag gun” is a well-built Attache/Briefcase. I like, and have used, this one:


I have no affiliate link, or similar arrangement, with Hill People Gear. Just a payin’ customer; full price. First Spear dot com sews Hill People Gear‘s packs/bags. (The Hill brothers do not design their gear to look tactical/military, so, their products differ from the First Spear line of products.)

As long ago as the Nineties, if not the late Eighties, I used an attache/brief, with a pistol compartment, constructed with high-quality nylon fabric, by a now-defunct maker. It blended well enough when I wore “civilian clothes” to the courthouse, such that I was mistaken for being a lawyer, several times. Now that I like to tote an iPad, and have become a photography enthusiast, a bag or small backpack has become a normal part of my daily routine.

Public Safety Warning: Never become separated from one’s bag! Lets keep ‘em small, so that that they go everywhere with us.

Edited to add: I realize that the coolest of the yute-tubers are totin’ their RDS-equipped pistols at AIWB. Thanks, but, no thanks. I was AIWB-in’ long before AIWB-in’ was cool, but have aged-out of that being tolerable for more than an hour or two, with any handgun larger than a compact, fixed-sight revolving pistol.

I really don’t see a self defense advantage to dot sights over iron sights. In theory, there is more to go wrong with dot sights. That said, my smallest carry guns are iron, but my favorite carry and both home defense guns have a Holosun EPS MRS. I’m decades past needing help with near vision and I can still use iron sights just fine. I no longer require that they are in focus and they are not. Training with dot sights makes iron sights a snap. Personally, I prefer green dot over red and prefer enclosed vs exposed emitters. Either way, dry fire is the key.

P5 Guy said:

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I prefer fixed sights. Really how often do you readjust the sights on your pistols?

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I sort of agree, but: I signed up for a service revolver match last year where I shot my S&W M66 and wanted to study the "best" accuracy shooting bullet weight for that course: 25-50yds. I have molds for .38 caliber from 105gr to 168grs. The vertical impact difference between light and heavy is over 12" at 50 yds. I had to adjust the sights from my 140gr jacketed, hollow point nightstand gun. But, now I'll only have to adjust the sights if ever I change my load/bullet from whatever I last shot with.
For a carry pistol, like my M15 2" that I wished had been a fix sight, as the M10 is a much more handsome gun, I match the load to the point of aim rather than the other way around.

Irons for me. I have tried dots & just cannot get there. Not because I don't want to, though

People were hitting their targets pretty well with iron sights long before optics were offered for handguns. I practice instinctive shooting for defense, generally point the gun and get the front sight on the target. Lining up the sights, whether iron or optic, take that millisecond of time that might make the difference between hitting the perp before he hits you. Less accurate? Maybe, but taking a round to the body will sure upset your aim. Rather it be him than me. If I can do that with the first shot, I'll take a tad more time lining up the second one to hit the X-ring.

MutinousDoug said:

I sort of agree, but:

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I shot in a local 22 bull's eye league in the 90s.
25-yard indoor range, was the only time I put a screwdriver to the site. CCI Green Tag hit low compared to the PMC Sidewinder I had been plinking with since I got the High Standard 107 Citation.

I know that using high velocity was not the best for the gun, I had put a fresh recoil spring in it when I got it.

I have and use both. Started using dots back in the 80s when the dot and mount weighed about a pound.

trackskippy said:

What you do is, bring the gun straight up in front of your face "before" you push it out. The dot is right there and quickly picked up, and once you have it, you don't lose it. And of course, youre doing this, while your focus is on the target (not the dot) and where you want the dot to be on the target when the gun is presented. And that's where it will be, or very close. Its just like shooting a dot on a long gun in that respect.

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This is, IMO, a very good explanation. I was taught to present iron sights this way when I was a kid and call it indexing off of your nose.

"Finding the dot" ended up being an issue that didn't materialize. My son said, "You already index to see the sights; if you see the sights, you'll see the dot."

And I do.

Larry

DustyGmt said:

Just curious how many people out there have made the switch to a red dot or are sticking to their irons and perhaps a brief statement as to why they prefer one over the other. Seems like as the years go on the red dots have become just as prevalent on pistols as they are on rifles, maybe more.

I am slow to the table on these kinda of things and I bought all my guns before MOS and slide cuts/mounting accommodations were a standard item on a pistol. I've been giving it some consideration lately, I wouldn't be opposed to sending a glock off to get optic cut.

I've never shot a handgun with a RDS that I can remember but I did pick up an RDS equipped handgun a few times and found it hard to pick up the dot, something I'm sure could be overcome in a day, some instructors report that beginners pick up a handgun/RDS and are scoring A zone hits consistently right off the bat but hand em a gun with irons and they miss. There's a clip going around on the internet of a guy calling irons (amish guns).

something tells me either way, I'll get by just fine without a RDS on my pistol, maybe once I wear out my EDC holster and its time for a new one, just taking a poll to see where most guys are with it......

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I can get by with either, and for up close and personal I'm not sure it would make much difference. The further the range and the faster the rate of firing, the greater I feel the RDS helps. Fishing for the dot is common when you start out, but it is overcome with training and can be mitigated with certain reticles. I think a big advantage of a RDS is the ability to be threat/target-focused (i.e. focused on one plane, rather than trying to focus on your front sight while still viewing the rear sight and target and aligning the three planes). With practice, it's easy to pick up the dot and just as quick, if not quicker, than irons. A RDS can be good for aging eyes, as well, when older people sometimes struggle to bring the front sight in to focus. I started on irons and think you should still train to be proficient with them, but I use a RDS when possible.

I've tried dots and just can't get into it. Still irons for me, but I will give the dot another try. I just don't have the patience to put in months of practice just to see if I will keep it on or go back to irons

DT Guy said:

"Finding the dot" ended up being an issue that didn't materialize. My son said, "You already index to see the sights; if you see the sights, you'll see the dot."

And I do.

Larry

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What's the proper way to sight in a dot on a pistol, though? Without shooting from a rest that is...

I sight mine in the same as I do my irons, at 10 yards, on my feet, as I intend to shoot. I'll then do the same at 25 and verify, and if necessary, I'll fine tune things. Which so far, hasn't been necessary.

Other than getting the "10 clicks to the inch" adjustment at 10 yards into your brain, Its pretty simple.

As far as how long it will take to get used to shooting with it, that's all up to you. How long did it take for you to shoot realistically with irons beyond basic, bullseye target type shooting?

With the red dot, it took me about a month (at most) of constant playing with it to be comfortable enough to carry it. And that month was spent doing everything and anything you can think of as far as handling and shooting. Lots of dry fire, weekly live fire, one handed, two handed, holster and different ready positions presentations, etc. The same things I always do with an iron sighted gun. And still do. Just because you move on to something else doesn't mean you abandon everything you've done before. It all intermingles and ties together anyway.

I think you're going to find, once you get "getting the dot" down, which wont take long, you're going to see just how easy it makes things, and your speed and accuracy pick up, and you'll be hooked.

NeverEnoughFDE said:

What's the proper way to sight in a dot on a pistol, though? Without shooting from a rest that is...

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Iron sights were all that was available back in the dinosaur era when I learned to shoot. I had excellent eyesight and they worked great. Of course age did what age does and removed my ability to focus on iron sighted handguns with becoming farsighted. Glasses made it possible but not nearly as good as young eyes. I eventually tried a reflex red dot and now all my play around pistols wear them, I have never noticed a weight difference with any and at my age I can tell when something is heavier than normal. A 50# sack of milo is now as heavy as 100# was back when the dinosaurs still roamed. Now I can see iron sights again and that is what is on the two SD pistols I have handy in the house. I like white dots on both sights as it makes them quicker to line up in my case. Poking holes in paper or coke cans and ringing steel I use red dots because I am more accurate with them and the kids don't get to laugh as much at grandpa as they would if I was using irons. When using revolvers it's all irons and they can laugh their little heads off. I won't even take their ammo supply and go home if they do.

I've used a red dot on my target pistols for a couple of years now. My carry pistol doesn't have a place for a red dot. I pulled the red dot off my 22-target pistol. I wanted to see if I could shoot irons as good as I could with the dot (25-yard bullseye type shooting). So far, I don't have a good answer. I think the answer is I shoot best whatever I've shot most over the past couple of months. I have a red dot on my 9mm target pistol currently, but I plan to do some more rapid shooting with it to compare to my service pistols only equipped with iron sights. The tube type RDS on my 22 was very slow to find the dot. The Crimson Trace on my 9mm is much faster, but I have not compared it directly to irons to see which is faster.

Holsters that work for CC seem to be a major sticking point...the ones I've run across conceal like a cross between an unabridged Bible and a colostomy bag: that postage stamp sized gizmo sticking up just plays hell with the drape of my chinos. YMMv...Irons for me....Rod (But the RD I've got on one of my AR's is easy to find, and no more bulky than the old fixed carry handle on our M-16's from the 70's)

For me, all my SD firearms wear open sights mainly because they're less prone to failure, they provide quicker target acquisition, and have a smaller profile.

I have to say that after seeing the advice by @Styx in this thread and the images provided on another thread on THR and after talking with a guy that works at my LGS whose opinion I trust, I have decided that I am going to try out an RDS.
It won’t be right away. I am on a retirement budget, but maybe within a couple or three months, but I think I am going to try it out.

I have a Glock 48 MOS. After reading reviews and information and talking with the guys at my LGS I am looking at purchasing the Holosun HS507K X2
I like the 2mm dot within a 32 MOA circle. Also, I‘ll not be installing those suppressor height iron sights. They block too much of the RDS view.

This is the one, but I will buy it from my LGS. I am not one of those guys that wastes sales people’s time and then buy from somewhere else.

He did mention the Holosun EPS Carry enclosed emitter RDS that’s a bit more expensive. It makes sense that any blockage of the emitter buy dust, lint, mud, rain, sweat or whatever, could be bad. We’ll see when I get my funding together.

I jumped on the P365 wagon complete with red dot to find I didn't like the extra bulk of the sight. I gave it to my daughter to carry in her purse. She found the sight hung up and will not carry it for that reason. I should have gone with the regular sighted version.

Red dot sights are most definitely faster than irons. At every school I've been to, and I've been to more than a few, the guys with dot guns shot the pants off those who didn't in every metric.

The catch is you can't just pick up your buddies dot gun at the range and fire a magazine or two and compare. You have to put in the dry fire reps first to see the speed difference.

What's going to happen to the kids who grow up using nothing but this electronic gadget when they cant get batteries and never learned to use iron sights???

John Dunbar said:

What's going to happen to the kids who grow up using nothing but this electronic gadget when they cant get batteries and never learned to use iron sights???

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The same thing thats happened to those who cant drive a stick, or read a tool that isn't digital, etc. They only know what they know, and they will be stuck there if they arent willing to learn as much as they can about as much as they can.

And this isn't just a problem for those that have only learned the current things either, its also a problem for those who refuse to keep moving forward and continue to learn. As soon as you quit bothering to learn, you stagnate and get left behind. Age has nothing to do with any of this either.