NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Interesting, I've used both the Garand Gear and Shuster plugs and didn't notice any accuracy issues.
M2 Ball Yaw?
- Thread starter toledo
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NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Garand Gear has a chart on their website wherein they tested many commercial loads with a specially modified piston plug containing a piezo sensor. There were a few loads that fell within the port pressure of M2 ball, but most greatly exceeded it.
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Coffee and sunlight cause my accuracy issues.
Too much work to be fake news .
Jeremy2171
Member
How about you leave the personal attacks out of it and prove your point that commercial ammo is dangerous.
Reading id fundamental I never said every single load has the same pressure. I said that military ammo has a range of pressure and that commercial ammo falls in this range.
Jeremy2171
Member
Jeremy2171
Member
Yep...and they only tested a few military loads including the weak late 60s m2 ball.
They didn't test enough milsurp to get a proper baseline....or maybe they did and saw that the pressures between military and commercial weren't that different.
But if they posted that data then you wouldn't need to buy their product.
remember it's their test data that shows you need to buy the gadget they sell.
Jeremy2171
Member
Maybe it's just fake enough to give you just enough data to be convinced you need to buy the product they are trying to sell you....
I'm not calling their numbers fake....I'm saying they didn't test enough milsurp ammo to show a proper range of pressure.
Just like the stupid inrange video. Those two idiots used the weakest M2 ball to "prove" that commercial ammo is "hot" compared to milsurp.
They should have done more research before making a junk video
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Ok, how bout this for the OP.
1) FMJ kills stuff, but it's neither optimized for game nor legal for hunting everywhere.
2) True military surplus ball ammunition is getting rare and even when you find it is, at best, 40-50 years old at this point as well as having corrosive primers and potentially degraded/ unstable powder.
3) Commercial hunting ammunition is expensive and new production commercial FMJ ammunition loaded to M2 specs is rare and even more expensive.
4) Adjustable gas plugs are cheap, easy to install, and MAY provide extra protection from damaging the rifle while using readily available commecrial SP hunting ammunition. Any hunting rifle should be test fired for reliability and sighting in before taken afield.
5) The best answer is to roll your own using a trusted hunting bullet loaded to military specs. The second best answer is use commercial hunting ammo and a gas plug. The third best is new FMJ (assuming it's legal), and the worst idea is using old surplus M2.
1) FMJ kills stuff, but it's neither optimized for game nor legal for hunting everywhere.
2) True military surplus ball ammunition is getting rare and even when you find it is, at best, 40-50 years old at this point as well as having corrosive primers and potentially degraded/ unstable powder.
3) Commercial hunting ammunition is expensive and new production commercial FMJ ammunition loaded to M2 specs is rare and even more expensive.
4) Adjustable gas plugs are cheap, easy to install, and MAY provide extra protection from damaging the rifle while using readily available commecrial SP hunting ammunition. Any hunting rifle should be test fired for reliability and sighting in before taken afield.
5) The best answer is to roll your own using a trusted hunting bullet loaded to military specs. The second best answer is use commercial hunting ammo and a gas plug. The third best is new FMJ (assuming it's legal), and the worst idea is using old surplus M2.
Jeremy2171
Member
Even better cheaper idea...
Properly grease your rifle..
Ensure the oprod spring is at least 19.5" long. (Orion 7 makes great replacement springs.)
Then shoot what SAAMI spec ammo you want without worry.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Always a good point about a fresh return spring. 
Lots of good info. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.
"Properly grease your rifle.."
Is there a good resource on this? Ill admit I don't even know how to get to the op rod and spring. All ive ever done is oil the action and shot them. My current gun hadn't been shot in 30 years so it's probably dry.
"Properly grease your rifle.."
Is there a good resource on this? Ill admit I don't even know how to get to the op rod and spring. All ive ever done is oil the action and shot them. My current gun hadn't been shot in 30 years so it's probably dry.
Lubriplate was the go to lube issued in the '50s. There are newer, supposedly better in use today, but I prefer to dance with the gal that brung me. This video is about as good as any, although, I prefer to wipe the op rod w/lubriplate and I do not put any lube on the hammer hooks or trigger sear. A drop or two of oil on the hammer spring plunger is a good idea, as well. For op-rod health the bolt lug recess and belly of the barrel, as well as op-rod spring and follower rod also good idea.
His word of caution about too much lube is a good one.
If you are using your rifle in an extremely dusty environment, better skip the lube as it gathers grit, causing stoppages.
https://youtu.be/sKUI-pzLbzA
ETA: "https://www.youtube.com/embed/lTVe3jMimbU"
As far as the gas cylinder lock screw, in military jargon of the '50s it was called a gas plug but referring to this schematic will keep nomenclature purists happy.
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There, I fixed it for you.
Now for the CMP ammo suggestions; I spent over an hour searching the CMP web site and googled M1 ammo. The only thing I uncovered from the CMP was this undated quotation. Perhaps this is the "new" wisdom, IDNK?? If so, could it be due to the scarcity of even foreign made M2, again IDNK.
From my personal experience(s) (70 years) with care and feeding Garands, and that which I recall which was supported by the DCM when I purchased my M1 from them in 1984*, was that the rifle should be fed US M2 Ball (then in plentiful supply from DCM & elsewhere).
Furthermore, as I recall, DCM has gone to great lengths until quite recently, after US M2 stocks were depleted, to purchase M2 ball manufactured in Taiwan and other foreign sources in order to be able to supply this (recommended) ammo for the M1 rifles they provided. This indicates to me, the importance they placed on using M2.
Also, having participated in service rifle competition with the M1 for the better part of 20 years (guestimate as I cannot recall when eyesight forced me to switch to the bolt gun). During that period of time, the accepted theory** advanced by most, if not all competitors was that use of ammo other than M2 Ball, M72 Match or handloads to those standards was detrimental to the life of op-rods. I can assure you that most, if not all of the rifles used by these competitors received proper care and lubrication. The "standard" load for these competitors was 47 gr. 4895 behind a 150 gr. SMK , which duplicated M2 or same charge behind 168 gr SMK for M72, using USGI brass.
* In the interest of full disclosure, I previously stated the I paid $98 for this rifle; the actual price was $94.30.
Some interesting information on development of M1 Garand and it's ammo from the cave man's Google:
and from the same source Gen. Hatcher's evaluation of the strength of Garand Receivers..........
Sorry I forgot to address this point in my last post.
Which "commercial ammo has the same port pressure as military ammo"?
Since no one knows what powder any ammo manufacturer is using in their product, it is impossible to know the burn rate of that powder. Slower powders loaded to a given breech pressure (40-50,000 # for ammo which the M1 was designed for) will produce a higher port pressure than the powders with a faster burn rate as was prescribed for M1 and M2 ball according to data from Gen. Hatcher. Again, it is the port pressure we are concerned with, not the breech pressure here.
Jeremy2171
Member
As far as the gas cylinder lock screw, in military jargon of the '50s it was called a gas plug but referring to this schematic will keep nomenclature purists happy.
FYI
Also in "military jargon" it was called this...
Jeremy2171
Member
Neat books you have the same ones I do...
In short the reason they went looking for M2 ball is because that's ALL they could import into the country. AP and tracer are prohibited. They didn't get any from Taiwan they did get it from Greece however and other European countries.
DCM ceased to be in 1998 IIRC and you must mean CMP.
Your charge of 47.0 4895 duplicated "some" loads of M2. M2 ball was made by many factories/countries over a 50+ year span. The loadings are not all identical and they vary quite a bit in pressure and charge weight..
4895 wasn't even used in US ammo until around 1944.
Jeremy2171
Member
You have fallen into the trap most internet "bloggers" and "garand authors" (and even some ammo makers) have. You have confused the CUP vs PSI readings.
The garand was made to SAAMI specs and follows that regarding chamber pressure specs.
I've been talking about port pressure the whole time. Since I've actually spent time and ammo in a SAAMI spec lab testing this in test barrels I now know that the whole "M2 ball only" myth is just that...myth.
The in spec and properly lubricated garand can safely use commercial ammo without modifications with no issues.
Yep, we all knew the proper nomenclature but most referred to the "gas plug" (which it is by function, if not proper name).
Jeremy2171
Member
JCG called it the screw, gas cylinder lock. The gas cylinder plug goes on the gas trap and is different.
Jim Watson
Member
Since no one knows what powder any ammo manufacturer is using in their product this month...
it seems smart to shoot "imitation army surplus" ammo or to load your own.
One of those Garand Load brands is listed at 2750 fps while 150 gr JSPs are pushing 3000 fps. The extra 200 fps has to come from somewhere.
hps1 has already made my point, the M1 rifle was designed for the M1 cartridge. Obviously the chamber and port pressures had to be suitable.
The US Army is not a member of SAAMI. This dogged us for years, leading to claims that the .308 Winchester was loaded to substantially higher pressures than 7.62 NATO because the Army still calibrated a crusher gauge in psi, not adopting the CUP nomenclature.
Jeremy2171
Member
Never said it wasn't designed for ball...
Yet the garands chamber pressure limit is 50k CUP...the same as SAAMI.....
Hence...SAAMI spec ammo is safe in the garand.
I never purchased any ammo from (DCM) CMP, I tend to use them interchangeable); do recall they sold a lot of Greek, now that you mention it, but my point is that they went to great lengths to provide foreign manufactured M2 rather than choosing US made commercial ammo. Of course, cost could be a large factor in that choice, as well.
I ran our club's DCM program for 10-12 years. Before that I ordered quite a bit of Taiwan M2 ball that was touted as being "reloadable brass cases" which made it a bargain. It was decent ammo, quality brass, boxer primed, but their primers were .002-.003" larger than our 210's so not such a bargain after all.
'98 sounds about right.....it was DCM for a long time; it was during Clinton's administration.
Been loading a long time, but even I was not loading in 1944, so will take your word for that being the year they started using 4895.
Jeremy2171
Member
Cost was a main factor....always is...I never purchased any ammo from (DCM) CMP, I tend to use them interchangeable); do recall they sold a lot of Greek, now that you mention it, but my point is that they went to great lengths to provide foreign manufactured M2 rather than choosing US made commercial ammo. Of course, cost could be a large factor in that choice, as well.
I ran our club's DCM program for 10-12 years. Before that I ordered quite a bit of Taiwan M2 ball that was touted as being "reloadable brass cases" which made it a bargain. It was decent ammo, quality brass, boxer primed, but their primers were .002-.003" larger than our 210's so not such a bargain after all.
'98 sounds about right.....it was DCM for a long time; it was during Clinton's administration.
Been loading a long time, but even I was not loading in 1944, so will take your word for that being the year they started using 4895.
Prior to 4895 it was primarily 4676 and 1185.
nettlle
Contributing Member
Not sure why a gas plug would hurt accuracy.
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