Any opinions on the .30 Super Carry cartridge

Kleanbore said:

According to Goose Gestapo, the ammo price has come down significantly.

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Makes me wonder if clearanced priced or not?

I cast and reload so primers are my biggest expense.
I bought a quantity of American Eagle ball for cheap. Also, RO at range picked up a few hundred OFB for me.
The range gremlins are almost as fond of the brass as 10mm or .32acp, however. Fired Brass disappears frequently.

I always wanted modern pistols in 7.62 Tokarev.

30 SC is very close in most ways. I don't own one yet, but I have shot one and I am impressed. It is very easy shooting, the shield I shot was very accurate, and getting more rounds in a mag is a bonus.

I am definitely thinking about adding one to the collection

chicharrones said:

Makes me wonder if clearanced priced or not?

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Don't know what it started out at, or if it's on sale...but the only place that I noticed .30SC on the shelf was $34.99/50 or $31.99/20 for "defense" ammo. Same brands in 9mm were $12.99/50, $17.99/20 and $28.99/50, $25.99/20 of .45.

Kleanbore said:

Adding two rounds could be worthwhile.

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In my case it would be adding 6 or 7, double the capacity for little increase in bulk.
How much increase in bulk? I will find out the next time I am at the rental range.

It is strange when you go to the range with any instrument that fires .30 Super Carry how the brass just seems to vanish into thin air. I went to the range and shot 50 rounds. I swept up the brass around me and have 21. Do they magically turn into .40 smith and wesson's once's the've been fired? Because I have a zip lock bag full of .40 S&W brass and I don't own a single firearm that fires that caliber.

The local gun shop/S&W sold me a "EZ" model for $302.00 out the door. Given that my father has arthritis problems and has trouble with some of my 1911s, I thought this would be a good deal. The 30 Super Carry is indeed a step in between the recoil of a .380 and a 9mm. And I was drop-jaw surprised by how incredibly accurate it was. At 12 yards I was consistently getting one inch patterns. I won't tell you what my 80 year old, arthritic handed father was hitting. Needless to say he out-shoots me. (as usual)

There are videos out there on the Interwebs about how Federal Cartridge Company engineered this new and groundbreaking technology round from the ground up. And then you find out that the dimensions of the round are only 1mm in length-of-case different from the "7.65 French Long" which is a cartridge from oh...bout a bazillion years ago. Also, for a "New and ground breaking technology", you can use .32 ACP bullets to reload them. Assuming:

Assuming you can find brass. The dimensions of the case are just different enough that you can't take any other currently, or historically, available .32 case to make it work. .32 H&R magnum cases would be viable to turn down to the correct length, but they do not have the proper mass for machining the base. And the SAAMI specs for pressure are a bit mind-blowing for this little bitty cartridge too. So just necking down an old revolver case would inevitably be a disaster. Starline doesn't at the time I type this offer any empty brass in this caliber for reloading. Maybe that will change?

It may very well be considered a "boutique" caliber for a while. But then again, the 10mm flopped horribly back in the mid 1980s. .357 SIG is still considered a "flop". .22 TCM is still rare as a hen's balls around my area but the guys at the range I shoot at who have them say it's a tack driver and they love it. I guess to each, their own.

A couple of the local big box stores around my area run specials on 50 round plain jane white label boxes of 30 Super Carry for $18. So it's just about as expensive as .380

I can't say I'm a rabid fan of the round but...300 bones for a gun that:
1.) Shoots damn accurately
2.) is easy to rack for my dad's arthritic hands
3.) has the Smith and Wesson name and customer support behind it
4.) for at least the time being has ammo with the same availability and price as .380

Hell, I can't complain.

Archym said:

It is strange when you go to the range with any instrument that fires .30 Super Carry how the brass just seems to vanish into thin air. I went to the range and shot 50 rounds. I swept up the brass around me and have 21. Do they magically turn into .40 smith and wesson's once's the've been fired? Because I have a zip lock bag full of .40 S&W brass and I don't own a single firearm that fires that caliber.

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It’s the SUPER designation. My 38 Super has the same issue. Brass just vanishes

To be honest, 30 Super-Carry is not gonna last long. Its a dumb cartridge that never should have been invented.

Sure, it gives you a few more rounds in a compact handgun, but its not like 9mm rounds are huge and its not like we don't already have basically every conceivable profile already designed in 9mm.

Need good capacity from a small handgun in 9mm? Thats what 1.5 stack handguns like the Sig 365 and Springfield Hellcat are for. You get about 12 rounds from the mags of most of these guns and they are VERY small.

Want even more capacity with a double stack? Glock 19, Canik Mete SF, Walther PDP, the list goes on forever in this category (compact classic) size thats just a bit smaller than a full-sized duty pistol.

Basically, there are endless options in 9mm to suit anyone's needs and ull be able to actually afford the ammunition.

Additionally, 30-SC is pretty weak. If it was a special cartridge that could burn all the powder in a very short barrel and showed exceptional performance versus 9mm then there would be a reason for it, but it doesn't. Instead it looses to 9mm while only giving you and extra round or two - just not worth it.

So in essence, its a modified, more powerful 380Auto. The capacity is similar but with more power. People who carry 380 do so for the very soft recoil. 30-SC doesn't do that, so that use case is out the window as well.

Yep, theres just no reason for it. Chose 380 for smaller guns and softer recoil for people uncomfortable with 9mm, or just choose 9mm. It really is that simple.

Here is a video by Paul Harell evaluating the 30-SC cartridge. In the end, he prefers 9mm over 30-SC but he does understand the benefits of 30-SC:

30 super carry is a niche cartridge. For people with weak, arthritic or petite dainty hands it is a soft shooting cartridge chambered in a very easy to manipulate pistol (S&W M&P Shield EZ) that gives near 9mm energy with more rounds than 9mm or 380 and softer felt recoil than a .380 blow back pistol. For this demographic it would be very hard to find a more suitable pistol. I could see my petite teen daughter favoring such a pistol.

For a forum full of gun enthusiasts, many of whom love magnum calibers, it isn't going to get much respect.

Wolfsbane said:

$300 sale price. Think the MSRP is around $600.

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$300 is the absolute tops I would pay for one if I had the money burning a hole in my pocket. It "Might" be worth something someday considering it probably has pretty low sales.

I wish the 30 SC and its adherents all the best. Personally I, and probably many shooters most likely, feel like my needs are satisfied with previously existing and more established cartridges.

Almost everything I have is setup for 9mm and/or 45 acp and I’m good with that.

Perhaps there’s a niche in the market for this cartridge, but hard to see it supplanting others.

It seems like the goal of 30 SC was to meet similar ballistics to 9mm but be able to fit 2 more rounds in roughly the same space. I live in a state that limits capacity to 10 rounds anyway. If there was a 30 SC pocket pistol out there that increased the capacity over 9mm from 6 to 8 rounds, I'd buy it, but I don't see a pistol out there like that.

I think a compelling cartridge would be a cartridge that produces about as much muzzle energy as 380+P (between 290 - 300 ft-lbs) or has roughly the same felt recoil as 380+P but fires a bullet that penetrates deeper that 380 hollow points. I think there has to be a sectional-density sweet spot between 290 - 300 ft-lbs that yields better terminal ba;;istics han 380 ACP. In a locked-breach configuration, it would allow for a 10 ounce 5" x 4" pistol that is not punishing to shoot and performs better that current 389 cartridges.

double post

C0untZer0 said:

It seems like the goal of 30 SC was to meet similar ballistics to 9mm but be able to fit 2 more rounds in roughly the same space. I live in a state that limits capacity to 10 rounds anyway. If there was a 30 SC pocket pistol out there that increased the capacity over 9mm from 6 to 8 rounds, I'd buy it, but I don't see a pistol out there like that.

I think a compelling cartridge would be a cartridge that produces about as much muzzle energy as 380+P (between 290 - 300 ft-lbs) or has roughly the same felt recoil as 380+P but fires a bullet that penetrates deeper that 380 hollow points. I think there has to be a sectional-density sweet spot between 290 - 300 ft-lbs that yields better terminal ba;;istics han 380 ACP. In a locked-breach configuration, it would allow for a 10 ounce 5" x 4" pistol that is not punishing to shoot and performs better that current 389 cartridges.

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In your second paragraph, you exactly described the .30SC!
At 1,250fps from a 3-3/4” barrel Shield EZ, It's 100gr bullets get 340ftlbs, SD is equivalent to a 124gr 9mmPara. Ballistic performance in gel, glass, and sheet metal, it’s essentially equal to the 9mm. Only the volume of permanent wound cavities are about 10% smaller due to smaller expansion diameter.
With a max load of LongShot under a Hornady 100gr XTP, I’m getting 1,300+fps and 380ftlbs. It’s quite the over achiever.

I was at Grabagun when the Shield Plus in S.C. dropped to $259 with a $50 rebate ($209). I was picking up two 9mm M&Ps, so I let it pass, but that kind of promotion doesn’t happen because the product is jumping off the shelf. I was tempted.. but decided that it was just a distraction in that I had 380acp, and 9mm covered.

Kleanbore said:

.Officers in a publicly held corporation, who had more information than any of us thought otherwise, and put shareholders' money behind it.


No

Where did that idea come from? The diameter, OAL, and bullet are entirely different.

For many people, that is true. Others would like the additional capacity in the same flat, shootable, and easy to carry single stack gun they already have.

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I will admit there are a couple benefits to it. And no when I said its modified 380 I didn't mean its actually modified off the case, its pretty obvious that it isn't. But when it comes to the size of the handguns, their performance, and how many rounds they can hold - it is essentially a 380 handgun with performance closer to 9mm - thats what I meant by a "modified 380". Sorry for the confusion.

You said no, you don't want the additional capacity from a double stack, okay then why not the 1.5 staggered stack of the Sig P365/XL, Springfield Hellcat, or Smith & Wesson Shield? They all have grips barely any larger than traditional single-stack handguns, yet have impressive capacity.

Remember that these guns are all even SMALLER than Sub-Compacts from just a few years ago. My original Walther PPQ SC was a 3.5" Sub-Compact with options of a 10-round flush mag, 12-Round extended with pinky finger rest, and a larger 15-Round Entended.

The Sig P365 is quite literally not much larger than HALF the size of my old PPQ SC. Its much more narrow thanks to a narrow profile slide plus the 1.5 stack magazine, it weighs a decent amount less, and it is available with a 3.1" or 3.7" barrel depending on your preference. The flush magazine is 10-round capacity and the extended max with pinky finger rest is a 12-round, literally the same as my old PPQ SC that was much thicker and much heavier.

Thats what I mean by 30-SC is essentially useless, because firearms engineers have already solved the issue of smaller 9mm handguns with higher capacity. So why would you want this overpriced ammunition when 9mm is more powerful, MUCH less expensive and has many more options for exactly which handgun you want?

I personally recommend the Sig P365 or P365XL for CCW for the vast majority of people these days. The XL comes with a slightly longer grip so now the flush magazine is a 12-round and extended is 14 or 15 depending on if you go aftermarket or not. The standard P365 on the other hand is better for small frame individuals who wear tight clothing and need a smaller carry. They are both extremely narrow and low profile so no problems in either case on that front, and both have custom editions available, editions with optics or compensators, and editions with manual safeties.

Im even considering selling my current carry Walther PDP for a P365XL because despite my preference for the way a Walther feels in the hand, the PDP compact is pretty huge and prints pretty badly at times. It is after all a more traditional double-stack 15-round regular compact with a 4" barrel. Its almost duty size rather than sub-compact or micro-compact.

C0untZer0 said:

It seems like the goal of 30 SC was to meet similar ballistics to 9mm but be able to fit 2 more rounds in roughly the same space. I live in a state that limits capacity to 10 rounds anyway. If there was a 30 SC pocket pistol out there that increased the capacity over 9mm from 6 to 8 rounds, I'd buy it, but I don't see a pistol out there like that.

I think a compelling cartridge would be a cartridge that produces about as much muzzle energy as 380+P (between 290 - 300 ft-lbs) or has roughly the same felt recoil as 380+P but fires a bullet that penetrates deeper that 380 hollow points. I think there has to be a sectional-density sweet spot between 290 - 300 ft-lbs that yields better terminal ba;;istics han 380 ACP. In a locked-breach configuration, it would allow for a 10 ounce 5" x 4" pistol that is not punishing to shoot and performs better that current 389 cartridges.

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This is kind of true but unfortunately 30-SC comes up short. When you compare like-for-like loads in 30-SC and 9mm as Paul Harrell did in his evaluation of the caliber, 30-SC actually comes up a fair bit short of 9mm.

There may be more powerful +P loads that become more available later on that bridge the gap, but right now good defensive loads in 9mm usually have closer to 400 ft-lbs of energy, not 300.

A lot of the "good" defensive loads in 9mm are +P for that very reason. The additional pressure and velocity means more reliable expansion of the projectile. Not that standard pressure isn't reliable, 9mm has been well known to be extremely reliable with expansion for generations. Its just +P loads give you even more reliability and even more expansion, so why not? As long as you train with the ammunition occasionally, theres no reason not to use +P loads. +P+ is another story as that pressure is so high that not many handguns are rated to handle it, but +P is just fine to use in just about every handgun from every major manufacturer that isn't junk.

In a technical sense, .30SC could kill 9x19 for exactly the reasons people attribute to being the reasons 9x19 killed everything else. It won't, most likely because it's too expensive, and nobody is yet truly taking advantage of it being a smaller diameter cartridge.

It makes me giggle though that absent the economy factors, the 9x19 fanatics would have to resort to the ole "bigger bullet is better" argument to explain why they won't take advantage of the higher mag capacity offered by the .30SC.

RevolvingGarbage said:

In a technical sense, .30SC could kill 9x19 for exactly the reasons people attribute to being the reasons 9x19 killed everything else. It won't, most likely because it's too expensive, and nobody is yet truly taking advantage of it being a smaller diameter cartridge.

It makes me giggle though that absent the economy factors, the 9x19 fanatics would have to resort to the ole "bigger bullet is better" argument to explain why they won't take advantage of the higher mag capacity offered by the .30SC.

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Well if you look at my previous few replies, there are a few very strong arguments for 9x19mm over 30-SC.

I think 30-SC is pretty unique and does offer a few benefits. However, newer technology and 9mm models have basically solved those problems already.

The capacity thing has been solved for over half a decade at this point. The Sig P365 and Springfield Hellcat gave us plenty of capacity in tiny packages.

And more powerful 9mm +P defensive loads often get over 400 ft-lbs of energy while 30-SC is around 330-lbs from what I have seen.

Its not like 330 ft-lbs is weak, but its still less. And since 9mm handguns that are now offered in very small formats with great capacity, you do have to wonder - why would you swap to a much more expensive, yet weaker cartridge just for a couple extra rounds?

The Sig P365 already gives you a micro-compact thats barely 1" wide and has a 12-shot magazine by default. How is that not good enough? Statistics show that most citizen self-defense shootings are resolved with 5-6 shots fired by the defense. So with a single magazine in a modern micro-compact 9mm you can already deal with TWO defensive shootings or perps. Carry a spare mag and you can deal with FOUR.

30-SC is a cool concept, but how is 9mm not good enough at this point? Thats my real question. Because if you take into account the fact that 30-SC has a bit less energy per round, then even considering the extra magazine capacity of 30-SC, the total energy from a magazine is almost no difference whatsoever.

Lets say the P365-XL (3.7" barrel version for more muzzle velocity and energy) is offered in both 9mm AND 30-SC. There are plenty of 9mm defensive loads that will give you 400 ft-lbs out of a 3.7" barrel. So 12 rounds x 400 ft-lbs = 4800 ft-lbs per magazine of total energy. The 30-SC version would offer 2 extra rounds per magazine so now you have 14 x 330 ft-lbs = 4620 ft-lbs per magazine of total energy.

So basically, 30-SC may require that you hit an attacker with an additional round to incapacitate them VS 9mm. Thats not a problem given the additional capacity, but that also means 9mm is just as capable as a CCW.

Additionally, remember that ammunition pricing is EXTREMELY important for your CCW. You need to practice with your CCW to remain proficient with it, if your ammunition is 3-5 times more expensive, then you are likely to get much less practice with it.

Overall, 9mm is equivalent in performance in a self defense situation despite the lower magazine capacity because its still plenty enough capacity, but offers more practice with much more affordable ammunition, so overall - 9mm is a better self-defense cartridge than 30-SC.

MechaDragon said:

To be honest, 30 Super-Carry is not gonna last long. Its a dumb cartridge that never should have been invented.

Sure, it gives you a few more rounds in a compact handgun, but its not like 9mm rounds are huge and its not like we don't already have basically every conceivable profile already designed in 9mm.

Need good capacity from a small handgun in 9mm? Thats what 1.5 stack handguns like the Sig 365 and Springfield Hellcat are for. You get about 12 rounds from the mags of most of these guns and they are VERY small.

Want even more capacity with a double stack? Glock 19, Canik Mete SF, Walther PDP, the list goes on forever in this category (compact classic) size thats just a bit smaller than a full-sized duty pistol.

Basically, there are endless options in 9mm to suit anyone's needs and ull be able to actually afford the ammunition.

Additionally, 30-SC is pretty weak. If it was a special cartridge that could burn all the powder in a very short barrel and showed exceptional performance versus 9mm then there would be a reason for it, but it doesn't. Instead it looses to 9mm while only giving you and extra round or two - just not worth it.

So in essence, its a modified, more powerful 380Auto. The capacity is similar but with more power. People who carry 380 do so for the very soft recoil. 30-SC doesn't do that, so that use case is out the window as well.

Yep, theres just no reason for it. Chose 380 for smaller guns and softer recoil for people uncomfortable with 9mm, or just choose 9mm. It really is that simple.

Here is a video by Paul Harell evaluating the 30-SC cartridge. In the end, he prefers 9mm over 30-SC but he does understand the benefits of 30-SC:

Personal Protection: .30 Super Carry Evaluation

Paul tests out the new 30 super carry caliber for personal protection and concealed carry.Shirts and patches from Tristar Trading Co: https://alnk.to/6bSTELx...

youtu.be

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Not every new cartridge or caliber has to compete with 9mm in terms of potential popularity or equal or exceed the performance of 9mm. A new caliber isn't always going to be the right choice for everyone, but that doesn't mean it won't be the right choice for no one.