New Model Ruger Black Hawk

doubleh said:

What about short pipes. One of the biggest messes I had to rebuild concerned two very short pipes.

Click to expand...

Long enough the ends don't complicate the picture. If it's short enough the simple hoop strength formula doesn't apply. No idea what you are dealing with. A revolver cylinder is NOT a simple hoop case.

CraigC said:

Post a pic. I don't think so. Every cylinder I've seen ripped at the bolt notch. This is never in question.

Click to expand...

I've never seen one fail at the notch. I'm not saying it never happens, it's an uncontrolled event. But the usual failure is at the web. Get a copy of Julian Hatcher's "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers", page 218 in my soft cover edition. where Colt lays this to rest. S&W did a similar experiment in more recent times. (BTW: Of several blown cylinders I've seen, the most idiotic was a S&W Model 10 with a full case load load of Bullseye.)

I have two Taurus Raging Bulls, one in 454, the other in 45 Colt, 5 and 6 holes respectively. Same outer wall thickness in both, but thicker web in the 454.

doubleh said:

What about short pipes. One of the biggest messes I had to rebuild concerned two very short pipes.

Click to expand...

Long enough the ends don't complicate the picture, it's a hoop case. If it's short enough, the hoop case does not apply. But we don't know what you had. A revolver cylinder is not a hoop case. Apples and oranges.

unspellable said:

I've never seen one fail at the notch. I'm not saying it never happens, it's an uncontrolled event. But the usual failure is at the web. Get a copy of Julian Hatcher's "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers", page 218 in my soft cover edition. where Colt lays this to rest. S&W did a similar experiment in more recent times. (BTW: Of several blown cylinders I've seen, the most idiotic was a S&W Model 10 with a full case load load of Bullseye.)

Click to expand...

I have Hatcher's book and don't care what he wrote or Colt said. I don't know what you're reading or looking at. They fail at the bolt notch. They always fail at the notch. The folks that build guns to NOT blow up running pressures up to 65,000psi determined this decades ago.

Barmcd said:

Thanks for the explanation. I'm thinking I'm unlikely to find and old model Blackhawk at a price I want to pay. I have a Pietta 1873 clone that has a four click action, but in .357. I'm not a cowboy action shooter so that's not important to me. I just want a 45 colt revolver that will send a round down range above 750 FPS. Try as I might, I have not been able to get that out of my Uberti.

These are the loads from the Hornady manual for the 1873 Army and clones and the lower end of the Ruger only loads in the powder I have available. I've exceeded all these max loads and not reached 800 FPS with any of them. The closest I've gotten is with 11.5 gr of Accurate No. 5 which yields about 780 FPS. I've been using Berry's plated and Hornady XTP jacketed bullets in 250 gr. I don't think I'm actually pushing the envelope here because I haven't seen any pressure signs. In fact, none of the cases have required me to use the ejector rod to get them out of the cylinder and the primers have nice, round edges and hardly any flattening near the firing pin strike. It doesn't look like the cases are sealing very well in the cylinder because there is a lot of burn marks on the outside. Still, I'm reluctant to go any higher.

I'd like to be between the high end of the Cowboy loads and the low end of the Ruger only loads with a 250 grain plated or jacketed bullet.

Cowboy Loads
Powder	750 FPS	800	850
Titegroup	6.3
Bullseye	6.5
Unique	7.1	7.4
Win 231	7.3
Accurate No. 5	9.3	9.9	10.4
Ruger Only Loads
Powder	1150 FPS	1200	1250
Accurate No. 9	16.8	17.8	18.7
Alliant 2400	19.7	20.2	20.8

Click to expand...

My own experience: When I had Ruger ( and Winchester 1894 SRC) firearms in 45 LC firearms, My favorite bullets and powders were Oregon Trail 250-255 grain hard cast lead bullets with 9.5 grains of Unique powder, or Hornady Xtp bullets and 20.0 - 20.5 grains of 2400, and standard large pistol primers, CCI or Winchester. I would not be afraid to use any of these loads in any Ruger single action Revolver, regardless of vintage, as long as it is in Very Good to Excellent Mechanical condition.

You can find some really hot loads listed by author Ross Seyfried that he used in a new model .45 LC Bisley Blackhawk. Some of them, I remember past 1300 fps with 300 gr. Bullets.

Loads up to 1200 fps with 255 gr bullets are a cakewalk with Ruger Blackhawks, as long as you use a powder in the correct pressure range. If I remember correctly, Ross's Ruger was a stainless 5.5 inch barrel Ruger Bisley model

Barmcd said:

I appreciate all the input. I sent the Uberti to their service center this morning. They said they'd check it out, repair anything out of spec, and pay for shipping back to me. I don't know if they'll find anything, but it's worth $28 to find out. I'm still contemplating the Bisley Blackhawk. I really want a 45 Colt that will shoot more than Cowboy loads and I haven't been able to get the Uberti over 800 FPS. That's puzzling me because the data in the Hornady manual was developed using a 5 1/2" barrel 1873 Army Colt revolver. That's exactly what I have. I get the Italian clones may not be as precisely engineered, but I can't even come close to the numbers in the book.

Click to expand...

A couple places to check if your speed is less than expected is:

- the cyl throats. If larger than the bullet diameter gas will escape and reduce the pressure. This will also super heat cast loads and cause leading and irregular velocities. If an unloaded bullet falls through the cyl its too small. I.E. - if I size a bullet to 451 it will fall through and is too small but if it is sized to 452 it will not so is the proper diameter to seal and prevent gas loss. Some use up to 454 diameter bullets to mate with the cyl throats but regard to bullet hardness and the bores groove diameter must be considered.

- brass blow by. If your brass is smutty and power blackend on the outside you are loosing some pressure. This is typical with 45C as the brass is strong and pressure low.

- forcing cone too deep. Take a unloaded bullet and place it in the forcing cone - just the bullet not a cartridge. The bullet should be well into the rifling while the base of it is still in the cyl throat. This reduces pressure loss and also allows bullets to enter the barrel better promoting better accuracy. Use of bullets with a longer bearing surface like the three band Keith type 255 SWC puts more bullet in the bore and cyl at the same time.

- cyl to forcing cone gap. As long as you are getting nice formed circles the gap is being closed during firing. A thrust bushing or bearing that is too thick can prevent the cyl from mating with the cone. At the same time if it's too thin the cyl can get pushed out of square to the cone causing problems. On firing, the brass goes back against the frame and the internal pressure in a cartridge pushes the cyl forward against the cone to make the seal. The cyl should have some end to end movement and have around 005 clearance but more is fine as long as the spacer between the cyl and frame is the correct thickness.

There is alot going on. The above are just a few.

Congratulations! You’ll have to post pics when it arrives! Stainless or blued?

Question: this thread has prompted more than idle curiosity in me. I am a big fan of .45 Colt but have only two - a Colt SAA 4 3/4” and a Standard Manufacturing single action 7 1/2”. I love shooting them both but my old eyes have trouble with the teeny sights.

I was at Cabelas today buying a knife and I had to check out a new blued Blackhawk .45 Colt with the 7 1/2 barrel. What I liked - the overall size, weight and feel are excellent, and of course the sights are a profound improvement over the SAA for target shooting.

What I didn’t like - the fit of the backstrap to the frame was poor and the fit of the grips to the grip frame was poor as well. The backstrap “ears” were well proud of the frame and there was a visible gap between the two-piece grips and the back of the frame. Is there enough “wiggle” in these revolvers so that unscrewing everything and then screwing it back in will cure or at least significantly improve these issues? Or is this an example of a Monday-morning special and it’ll never be right? I never buy guns at Cabelas but the price was very good and, well, it was right there. I didn’t buy it because of the fitment issues though. Any insight anyone can share would be great!

Barmcd said:

I bought the used New Model Blackhawk Bisley 45 Colt this morning, it should ship today or tomorrow. You can't have too many revolvers right?

Click to expand...

Excellent choice

Barmcd said:

So, I'm still a little confused as to how hot a load the Blackhawk Bisley 45 Colt is capable of handling. Just to be sure, I'm not wanting to hot rod it to 12-1300 FPS. I'd like something between 800 and 1000 FPS, probably closer to 800 than 1000. I found this article which seems to say Blackhawks can handle 30,000 PSI, but I've seen other references that say 23,000 PSI.

5 Shot Single Actions

Here's the table from the article.

View attachment 1203548

I've read a lot about different frame sizes, names, serial numbers and dates and time-frames. Frankly, its confusing. I don't see any method to Ruger's madness when it comes to naming and labeling conventions. Is a Bisley New Blackhawk less capable than a regular New Blackhawk?

Click to expand...

You can get 800-1000 with a 250 gr. bullet and stay within SAAMI's 14k psi recommendation.

35W

I don't hot rod any handgun loads. If I remember correctly the Lyman manuals have Ruger specific loads. Stick with those and you should be OK. I trust a well known companies data more than any forum member load. I have learned caution over the years although I have never had any reloading problems and that might be because I use only reloading manual data. Some of the very old manuals have data that is now considered to be an overload so I would stick with the new manuals.

Barmcd said:

So, I'm still a little confused as to how hot a load the Blackhawk Bisley 45 Colt is capable of handling. Just to be sure, I'm not wanting to hot rod it to 12-1300 FPS. I'd like something between 800 and 1000 FPS, probably closer to 800 than 1000. I found this article which seems to say Blackhawks can handle 30,000 PSI, but I've seen other references that say 23,000 PSI.

5 Shot Single Actions

Here's the table from the article.

View attachment 1203548

I've read a lot about different frame sizes, names, serial numbers and dates and time-frames. Frankly, its confusing. I don't see any method to Ruger's madness when it comes to naming and labeling conventions. Is a Bisley New Blackhawk less capable than a regular New Blackhawk?

Click to expand...

Some of those numbers are a bit off. It should be...

14,000psi - Peacemaker. Except to say that any post-war Colt SAA is safe for .45ACP level loads.The Peacekeeper was a DA .357 from the `80's.
23,000psi - Equivalent to .45ACP +P.
32,000psi - Ruger only.
Oversized six shot levels are a gray area.
50-55,000psi - for custom five shots and Redhawks.

ANY large frame .45 Blackhawk made from 1971 to present is safe for Ruger only loads. The Bisley is just a different grip frame/hammer/trigger configuration. The only .45 Blackhawks not safe for these loads have been limited run flat-tops.

I agree that 1000fps should be easily attainable at standard pressures.

Hodgdon is the best source for heavy data.

Ruger is confusing as hell. The easiest tell is the flat top strap. "Flat-tops" are going to look like the top strap in the foreground. It is completely flat with the steel rear sight stamped "Micro", with the rounded mortise. The standard Blackhawk will look like the "eared" model in the background, with an aluminum (later steel with a Ruger eagle) rear sight with the squared off mortise. So far, the only mid-frame .45's have been built on this flat-top frame. There is a large flat-top frame but those were .41Mag and .44Mag only (as of 4/7/2024).

CraigC.

You asked for a Picture.

Your Picture.



This picture is immediately above it in the same article. Shows the sort of failure I was talking about and you claim never happens.


Every failure I've seen was of this type. If the missing area is recovered it is almost always a single piece with an intact wall over the kaboom chamber and split in the walls of the two adjacent chambers. Where it is in two or more pieces, forensic analysis almost always shows the initial failure was at one of the webs. The Taurus Raging bull in 454, and the S&W 500 have five chambers to provide a thicker web. With six holes, the notch is easily offset as in the Colt DA or the Dan Wesson. S&W, et al, do not do so because it is not necessary for strength.

Mn initial comment was to the effect that the cylinder notch does not significantly weaken the chamber wall, not a comment on how cylinders fail. I think both Colt and S&W have proven that point. The Colt SAA and its clones probably have the thinnest outer wall compared to any S&W, Ruger, or Colt DA.

You have implied that Hatcher, Colt, S&W, and a forensic study are all wrong. Since I have taken their word for it, I guess that makes me wrong too. I will now go away and contemplate the error of my ways.

P.S. Here's an Anaconda. You will note the outer wall of the kaboom chamber is not split. Both webs failed.

unspellable said:

You have implied that Hatcher, Colt, S&W, and a forensic study are all wrong. Since I have taken their word for it, I guess that makes me wrong too. I will now go away and contemplate the error of my ways.

Click to expand...

That picture directly refutes your nonsense, which I attribute to just enough information to be dangerous leading to erroneous conclusions.

No, I have stated without any doubt that Hamilton Bowen, John Linebaugh, Jack Huntington and every other authority in the field have concluded that the weakest point is the bolt notch. It is the thinnest point, it is the weakest point. It is the point where the cylinder splits like a zipper unzipping.

Ha! I don't clean them while I own them and never do so to sell or trade one.

Why, why, WHY do people carve/scratch their initials, ss #’s or whatever into firearms? Good Lord, if you’re out there and reading this, please stop. It’s just an incredibly stupid and selfish thing to do. No one needs it and nothing is helped by it. Just stop. Carve your initials into your forehead instead, if you need to leave them on something. Barmcd, that’s a nice gun! Range report due.

Ok, I’m done. Shop as usual.

Barmcd said:

The previous owner scratched his initials into the front of the cylinder. Irritating, but not really obvious unless you're looking for it. I need to try the cold blue to see if I can tone them down a little.

Click to expand...

You sure that isn’t the last three digits of the serial number? Ruger does that to indicat the cylinder is paired with that frame.

Barmcd said:

Does the Blackhawk cylinder load differently than other single action revolvers? My Uberti and Rough Rider single actions operate the same way. Pull the hammer to half-cock, open the loading gate, then rotate the cylinder clockwise until it clicks, then slightly push the cylinder counterclockwise until it stops and a chamber will be aligned with the loading gate opening to allow you to load a round.

If you open the loading gate on the Blackhawk, then rotate the cylinder clockwise until the click, the cylinder will not rotate backwards and is too far forward to allow a chamber to align with the loading gate opening. Do you just rotate the cylinder clockwise until a chamber is aligned with the loading gate ignoring the clicking of the cylinder as it turns?

View attachment 1204243

Click to expand...

Yes, you have to stop when the chamber is aligned with the slot. If you go too far, you can't go back. Another small attention to detail that Ruger has overlooked. Now that I think about it, that's the case with my large frame Blackhawk, but I don't remember having to do that with either of.my Flat Top Blackhawk's.

35W