My frustration with the NRA and other RKBA activist organizations

I'm disappointed that gun-rights have been allowed to become a partisan issue. This may not be a direct failing of the NRA-ILA, but I think it makes the gun-community weaker. We become dependent upon one party to look after our concerns, and popular opinion will never allow one side to hold power for long (thank god).

I feel like our gun-rights are eggs and all of them are in the Republican basket. This is a failing of the NRA-ILA. The alienation of more liberal gun owners (like myself) by supporting candidates they'll hate more than they love their guns is not a smart policy. I can't find reasons to join such an organization.

Click to expand...

Sir,

Your logic is badly flawed. The blame for for Republicans being the nominal champions of gun rights rests squarely on the the heads of Democratic party. For 40 years Democrats have waged war on gun rights. Republicans thereby appear pro-gun by default. As others have said, the NRA supports Democratic candidates when they appear to be the better choice on this issue, leaving all else aside.

I am a staunch critic of the NRA when I think they have done wrong (and they do often enough). I don't see anything wrong with the NRA failing to kowtow to your political preference.

David

The NRA has no problem sleeping with a lot of filthy characters, and that gives the whole movement a bad reputation.

Click to expand...

Yes, like Michigan Democrat John Dingle, when it suits them. I don't like it, but a Washington lobby has to associate with members of congress.

David

fateLK said:

Quote:
I think Bush is a great example of this latter issue, as we have a President who is seemingly beyond reproach by the NRA. He has done little or nothing to support our cause, and yet his actions in other arenas have caused all of us incalculable harm.
Sorry, I just couldn't let this one go unchallenged. I wil NOT defend Bush in everything, but this statement is objectively false. The appintments that he has made have have been very beneficial to our cause. The recent supreme court decision is just one example.

I really shouldn't even read these kind of threads, as I just get frustrated. As a conservative Christian, my beliefs and positions are frequently attacked and ridiculed as ignorant and uneducated, yet I am hesitant to defend them here because such things are off topic.

For example, the consensus among some is that the ACLU is wonderful except for their stance on the second amendment. As an educated, free-thinking person who cares about more than one issue, I could never support the ACLU even if they reversed their position on the 2A, because they distort most of the other amendments as bad as the second.

I don't bring this up to start anything, or stir the pot, so to speak. I just want to point out that this forum is populated with a very diverse crowd. It would be wise to remember this when spouting opinions about non-gun controversial issues. Not everyone agrees with you, nor are you likely to change their minds, no matter how convincing you think you are. People generally believe what they choose to believe, and if they are "fascist theocrats" or "socialist freaks" who happen to like guns, then so be it.

Personally, I have learned a lot, and developed a better understanding of people with opposite viewpoints, by reading this forum. I have not changed my mind on these other issues (drugs, abortion, homosexuality, etc.), and will continue to actively support organizations that share and promote my views in a positive manner. I do, however, realize that the folks on the other side are generally not evil demons, and we may very well agree on other issues. It really is OK to get along even if you don't agree, and the key really is to respect the other person and not get too uptight about your difference of opinion.

Click to expand...

Thanks for this post, fate. I could not agree more. There is more than enough narrow mindedness and stereotyping to go around on both sides of the political spectrum.

I'm liberal: I care about the whole Bill of Rights.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm conservative: I care about the whole Bill of Rights.

I am also a Historian. I care about the fact that you only need to go back a few years and any other country would have you in put jail or killed for what some people post on the Internet about our government. You can't tell me that any infringement of the Bill of Rights (except for the Second Amendment) does not get adequate discussion, scrutiny and legal action.

An country of uneducated voters scares the crap out of me.

Click to expand...

Me too.

And that's EXACTLY what liberal education policies have given us. Ask a 12-year old..."What was the Shot Heard Round the World?"..."Why Do We Have an Electoral College?"..."Why do We Have the Right To Keep and Bear Guns?"... "What's the difference between a subject and a citizen?"

They don' t know.

Guns and common sense are not allowed in our schools.

I am also a member of www.TheHighRoad.org, so I will stop my response to your post by responding only in terms of RKBA.

The simple answer to your post is to join the NRA...find other groups to fight your other issues and stop whining.

Wow, that little rant was a kind of strange to me but I do understand it. I am a college student in my mid 20s. I graduated but keep going to school because I love it. I am a grad student now. I also care greatly about all of our constitutional rights, not only the second amendment. But I disagree with you almost completely. What you fail to see is that the NRA is an interest group whose interest is the second amendment. The NRA is the National RIFLE Association, not the national due process and right to trial association. You can belong to more than one interest group at the same time you know…
Another thing that bothered me about your post is that you implied that Conservatives do not care about the entire Bill of Rights. Quote “I'm liberal: I care about the whole Bill of Rights.” It is my understanding that being conservative means that you believe in what the constitution means from its origin. Liberalism, on the other hand accepts new understandings of the constitution meaning an evolution of constitutional interpretation. This is how modern liberal thinkers came to the conclusion that the Second is not an individual right, as it would inhibit the safety and preservation of all the citizens in the US for firearms to be available to everyone. A true liberal would not think this way, but I don’t think there are true liberals anymore.

Anyway, you should join the gun lobby, because they represent your rights. Well, for the most part, but that is another thread…

Quote “The RKBA community claims that the 2A is the foundational clause of the Bill of Rights. It seems like they're feverishly guarding the trunk of the tree while our government cuts all the branches.”
The NRA and RKBA are branches, not the trunk. So support the branch so it can grow strong and provide nourishment for the entire tree.

Oh and a side note, I am sick of hearing of Democrat politicians talking about taking on the gun lobby. Do they not know that the gun lobby is made up of the citizenry???? It’s the people who make up the gun lobby, not big business…..

And sorry for my stratified rant… I know it’s all over the place

Thank you , Ready on the Right.

The RKBA community claims that the 2A is the foundational clause of the Bill of Rights. It seems like they're feverishly guarding the trunk of the tree while our government cuts all the branches.

Click to expand...

Eloquent. Yours or copied from somewhere? Either way, I like the sentiment.

I'll chime in my $.02: I am much of the same thought as Belus (and nearly the same demographic), however, after reading the well thought-out responses that people posted here, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of subscribing to the NRA. While it may not be perfect, it is an organization that is steered by its members. If enough people join up who: a) do not want to be spammed by mail and phone b) see less hyperbole and, c) want to see the NRA be more effective at protecting the 2A by having a wider support base, then it will be that organization.

The other posters also bought up a good point, the NRA-ILA's mission is to support gun-rights and only them. While I agree with the OP's assertion that they should be a little more discriminating with whom they support, the NRA's mission statement is to support the 2A, as such they are a single-issue organization.

I will also caution some of you, one-liner responses can cause a surprising amount of damage to your cause. Some people who are on the fence will read them and will be turned off from your position.

The RKBA community claims that the 2A is the foundational clause of the Bill of Rights. It seems like they're feverishly guarding the trunk of the tree while our government cuts all the branches.

Eloquent. Yours or copied from somewhere? Either way, I like the sentiment.

Click to expand...

I guess it's NICE PROSE, but where's the EVIDENCE?

The Bill of Rights does not guarantee that bad actions will not happen. It guarantees that bad actions will be corrected.

Except for the Second Amendment and McCain/Feingold, I would like to see true evidence of any other of the Bill of Rights not enforced in the USA. Do not show me where they are supposedly broken. Show me where you think they are unconstitutionally supported in a court of law.

No offense intended, but when you say:

Additionally, I support public education and think we should spend more on it. An country of uneducated voters scares the crap out of me. It's much easier for an authoritarian government to gain control over our lives when voters do not have the knowledge or capacity to challenge political decisions. Fascism, as a philosophy, relies upon the masses to support a political and intellectual elite, and we can't allow a gap in intellectual force to develop.

Click to expand...

You are saying that in order to retain our freedoms, we must empower the Government to solve this problem and then employ it to that end. And then do likewise for a hundred other problems. THAT is a problem in itself.

It's a common failing of humans that we tend to perceive of others as one dimensional, and perceive of ourselves as endlessly complex. Truth is, most people are endlessly complex, and most of them look around and perceive that they are surrounded by simpletons.

You take issue with the NRA in that they are one dimensional. I understand why. I've thought the same thing myself. But I also feel that way about the Democratic Party in general, because the very sentiment you express in the above quote is the essence of the "Democratic" or "Liberal" approach to problem solving. Let's pass some laws or initiate some government program to solve problem X, where X = whatever problem comes up. No matter what it is, the Democratic party approach is to solve it with a liberal dose of Government. I'll go ahead and concede that in recent history, the Republicans have been equally guilty of this.

I could go on and on, but in the end, when the Government finally determines that the simple minded populace of the USA can no longer be trusted with the right to keep and bear arms, then none of us are living in the USA as it was originally conceived any longer. The NRA is on the front lines of this battle, and I applaud them for it.

BTW, in our time, there are almost no barriers to education. It is widely available to everyone in this country. The one thing that does more than anything to deny people an education today is the ridiculous notion that education is only available in organized schools. If a person wants to educate himself, he has a better chance today in America than any other time or place in history. School as we know it has little to do with it.

I could have added this to my last post, but it doesn’t seem to fit with my argument there. As a college student I can attest to the skewing of information that goes on. Ideologies are propagated to students without their knowledge. You are bombarded with tiny tidbits of information that leads you to a certain stance on issues. They trick you into coming to wack-job conclusions on your own. By that time it is too late and you are a firm believer in backwards stances. What they do is try to make you look at situations form other people’s perspective’s and then they get you to feel sorry for them. This goes on a lot Marxism. They try to get you to think that the government is bad and does all it can to steal your money and hold you down from moving up in society. One professor actually gave me low marks because I disagreed with her about the US invasion of Iraq under UN Resolution 1441. I was just making argument using facts rather than emotions. It really wasn’t whether or not I agreed or disagreed with the war but more along the lines that I hate when people argue points based on emotions. Another thing I have noticed is that there is a push for internationalism and have a dislike of American Nationalism. I say American Nationalism as there seems to be a trend to embrace the thought of other nations having a sense of pride. These “thinkers” have even gone to the extent of claiming that there is no such thing as American Nationalism. A lot of liberal students have gotten up in my face for talking politics and being proud of my country. These are the folk that claim we are the true terrorists. These are completely absurd accusations that I have to put up with just to get an education. At least me being a historian, I don’t have to put up with the wackos who are in other fields.

One more thing, just so you know… when I was getting my political science degree there were some folk taking some of my courses just for kicks as electives who brought some insanely liberal ideas to the table. Fortunately there were five to twelve conservative students in my classes to keep the conversations from going completely nuts. I don’t know about all over in other departments but where I went to school the History and Political Science departments contained more than a few conservatives. I think it’s because in history people take pride in the past and in Political Science they are well read on issues. Most of the bull-poor comes from people who don’t know much about what they are talking about.
My point is although liberal ideology is spread about in college, it isn’t full of leftist propaganda. There is more balance than you think. And not all professors are leftists. What is bad is that the ones who spread this type of thought do so more effectively than their conservative counterparts. They have a soapbox complex. This is true outside college as well. Liberals just have bigger mouths while we silent conservatives just don’t go around yakking to everyone about it. There is a huge silent underground of conservatives at college. We just go with the flow.

We've also seen a shockingly fast erosion of constitutional protections.

Click to expand...

Evidence?

BTW, in our time, there are almost no barriers to education. It is widely available to everyone in this country. The one thing that does more than anything to deny people an education today is the ridiculous notion that education is only available in organized schools. If a person wants to educate himself, he has a better chance today in America than any other time or place in history. School as we know it has little to do with it.

Click to expand...

That is, perhaps (because I cannot truly know), one of the most educated things I have ever read.

Only bested by...

"The beginning of wisdom, is 'I do not know.'" -Lt. Commander Data-

and

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." -Ronald Reagan-

What I dislike about the NRA is that they've devolved into little more than a PAC for the GOP.

Click to expand...

I can certainly agree with your sentiment. I am disgruntled with the Republican Party in many ways as they move to the left.

But WHO ELSE are the NRA to support?

Unless somebody digs up Karl Marx I don't think he's going to be happy with any candidate. Obama is to the left of everyone in the Senate, but he hasn't achieved Karl Marx status yet.

John

Quote:
We've also seen a shockingly fast erosion of constitutional protections.

Click to expand...

Evidence?

Click to expand...

No knock laws and other provisions that allow the government to invade, seize, and destroy your property have gutted the Forth Amendment. The invasion of the Branch Davidian compound was a clear violation of the First Amendment. The execution of Randy Weaver’s wife was a clear violation of due process. The machine gun ban is a violation of the Second Amendment. The list goes on. Anyone who honestly cannot see the erosion of our Constitutional rights is poorly informed.

Sounds like the OP believes liberals hold 100% stock in civil rights and freedoms and that conversatives lead to fascism, a form of totalitarism.

When I hear or see that idealogy, I think back to the party that freed the slaves, gave women the right to vote and signed the Civil Rights Act. Yep those Republicans whose base constituency is what again?

If one goes to far left of the political spectrum, you run into communism and socialism both forms of totalitarism.

No side is perfect on civil rights so before signing off on that "only liberals care about the constitution," may want to step back and re-evaulate that belief.

Except for the Second Amendment and McCain/Feingold, I would like to see true evidence of any other of the Bill of Rights not enforced in the USA

Click to expand...

Howabout the totally-ignored Tenth Amendment?

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Like... the Federal gov't providing:
healthcare
medicare
retirement funds
welfare programs
roads
regulating virtually every product we make
etc. the list goes ON AND ON

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.”

Attributed to Sinclair Lewis

Click to expand...

And we're supposed to give a political prediction by a drunkard fiction writer creedence because?

I apologize for that. In my history as a voter we've only had conservatives in power. We've also seen a shockingly fast erosion of constitutional protections.

Click to expand...

Ahhh, there's the problem. You confuse the current Republican party and especially the current president with being conservative in any sort of traditional manner. Hell, they don't even pay lip service to such basic tenants as fiscal conservatism anymore.

NRA

So the NRA is too narrow in it's direction because it concentrates too much on the gun rights and the 2A?

Maybe I'm simple and just can't understand.

The ACLU on the other hand seems to be more motivated by PC and rarely if ever defends 2A or similar cases. So it's ok for them to narrow their focus and exclude the 2A?

Again I may be too simple minded to understand.

What I do understand is that the NRA will defend me in court when it comes to my God given and constitutionally guaranteed rkba and the ACLU won't.

I don't believe you like the fact that your party is in the enemy camp when it comes to gun rights and you still support them. If you support them, support them. You can also be a member of the NRA. I don't think you will join though because you don't like the NRA because it rightly points out that the Democrats, at least at the national level, are anti gun. You will never see a Democrat presidential candidate make it to the top that is pro-gun, they and the media simply won't allow it.

I'm a conservative independent and have problems with both parties but the GOP in recent years has a better record on the rkba and that's a fact.

I'm looking for a pro-2A organization that has a healthy respect for the rest of the Bill of Rights. One that might be willing to take a few short term hits in order to produce an overall better climate.

Click to expand...

But I'll bet you are looking for one with your political slant. That is not the NRA. They have a conservastive slant, always have had one.

You may have a hard time finding that for which you are looking.

If you think Bush is the first person to attack our constitutional rights you need to read up on

1. John Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts

2. Lincoln's actions regarding habeus corpus during the Civil War.

3. FDR's imprisonment of innocent citizens of Japanese descent during World War II.

4. The censorship of free speech during WW I.

Notice Lincoln was a Republican and FDR and WW were Democrats, so I'm being bipartisan. And John Adams belonged to a party that doesn't even exist any more!