Boycotting the French?

"you owe us for WWII, so bend to our will" tripe has gotten pretty old.

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Mere neutrality would be nice. Actually, the French attitude is "We owe you for WWII and WWI, so here's a knife in your back."

Rather than oppose us as every turn, France should just take the opportunity to shut up. (OOPS, that's what France said to some Eastern Europeans who supported us.)

Hey, I could even forgive them for shooting off their mouth about Iraq. They're French and I expect no more from them.

But those B#$+#&ds sold Saddam weapons in defiance of the UN ban right up until the war! They ACTIVELY supported Saddam with military sales! Did everyone forget the newly manufactured French anti-aircraft missiles found at the Baghdad airport? The radar systems, the aircraft parts pouring in, in the weeks before the ground war started?

I'll never buy French again. I like a good cognac or brandy now and again, but I've found that California makes some damned fine liquors - and at half the price! If any of you appreciate a good brandy, look for E&J VSOP - it sells for under $20 and will put any $50 French product to shame.

Keith

"Don't have time to get too into it now, but the French fleet under De Grasse prevented Cornwallis from being reinforced at Yorktown. That was pretty important."

Reinforcement wasn't the idea. Yorktown wasn't supposed to be an armed camp, it was to be a point of disembarkation for the British. Cornwallis was heading back to New York, which is why the Yorktown Peninsula was chosen -- the British fleet could get his troops and supplies out fairly easily from that point.

What most people don't know is that Cornwallis' Army wasn't closely pursued by Washington's army -- it was essentially unmolested as it worked its way up to Yorktown.

It wasn't until several days AFTER the Battle of the Capes that Washington even learned that Cornwallis was in a position where he could be cut off, and it wasn't for several weeks later that the American and French combined ground force could be assembled and moved into a position that could trap Cornwallis via land, and it wasn't until almost a MONTH had passed before the French could land heavy siege artillery that could seriously challenge the British defenses.

Yes, I know about Vichy France. Do you know that most nations taken over by Germany had fascist governments made up of locals? There were many who helped the Germans, and saw the invasion as a chance to take charge. Moreover, there were Polish SS units, and hundreds of thousands of willing troops from Eastern nations that had been beaten by the Germans.

"At Yorktown the British could not retreat,
Bottled up by Washington and the French Fleet,
Cornwallis surrendered and finally we had won."

Better start takin' some Ginko or somethin'. How could I forget what Schoolhouse Rock taught me, lo those many years ago.

Mike Irwin speaks the truth.

There were many who helped the Germans, and saw the invasion as a chance to take charge. Moreover, there were Polish SS units, and hundreds of thousands of willing troops from Eastern nations

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True, but just a few nations actually fielded troops under their own flag to assist the Germans. France was one of them.

Keith

No, they came up with new flags, but they were still fighting for their own nation, not Germany. Romanian, Hungarian and of course Italian troops all fought the Alliance on various fronts under their own flags. So why don't we have venom for Romania, Italy, Hungary, or any other nation allied with Germany?

Indeed, why don't we have the same venom for GERMANS? If we were going to hate a people, you'd think it would be the ones who caused WWII.

Face it, hate of the French is irrational.

So why don't we have venom for Romania, Italy, Hungary, or any other nation allied with Germany?

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Because those nations either assisted us in Iraq, or at least didn't sell Iraq weapons to kill Americans?

Did the Romanians, Italians or Hungarians violate the UN agreement and secretly sell weapons to Iraq? I don't recall any such thing...
Yet, France got busted only weeks before the war started, shipping all kinds of prohibited weapons to Iraq.

Have the French arrested any CEO's of companies who got caught selling weapons to Saddam? No? Hmmmm....

Keith

"So why don't we have venom for Romania, Italy, Hungary, or any other nation allied with Germany?"

Allied with is substantially different from invaded by, surrendered to, and then collaborated openly with.

As I've already stated, I despise the French for different reasons.

If you believe that hating the French is irrational, though, then perhaps hating anti-gunners is also irrational?



"Just think that a sovereign nation doing what it thinks is best ought to be able to do so without having its economy threatened."

Oh please.

Iraq, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Kuwait in 1990.

German, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Poland in 1939.

Japan, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it swept across China and into the Pacific in the 1930s and 1940s.

Perhaps neither of those nations should have had their economies threatened?

It's been noted, however, that France's motivations aren't fueled by what it feels to be best.

Chiraq openly stated some months ago that it was France's intention to be the basis for a bloc against American actions and interests. The unstated indication, born out by French actions over the past several decades, is that it intends to do so no matter what the situation is.

Most of western Europe opposed our war with Iraq. Russia had loaned millions to prop up Saddam. So again, why the hatred of the French in particular?

I'm also not clear on the distinction between France and the other nations invaded by Germany. The major difference was that France only got to retain control over half her territory. As punishment, the Germans occupied the main portion outright. Germany did not do this to other nations it invaded. In most cases, these nations were ruled by local fascists who had been waiting to get into power with German help. They were not occupied outright.

In other cases, such as Finland, there was no German occupation at all--just an alliance. So why don't we REALLY hate the Finns, who allowed Nazi troops in with open arms? Why not hate the Austrians for the same reasons?

for the record, the germans openly blocked our war agaist saddam as well, along with the french, but at least the knife was in the chest. given frances record i sometimes wonder why it supprises us to be stabbed in the back. -ing frogs

why don't we REALLY hate the Finns

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Were the Finns breaking the UN sanctions and selling weapons to Iraq? The Romanians, the Hungarians...?

France ALLIED itself with Iraq, none of these other nations did.

Keith

So again, why the hatred of the French in particular?

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Oh, I dunno cosmo....I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe, maybe, there were just a FEW people upset by numerous acts like this: (See pic attached below)


Translations:
Dig up your garbage, it is fouling our soil.
Rosbeefs (Brits) go home
Saddam Hussein will win and spill your blood
Death to the Yankees



Links:

http://memorabilia.homestead.com/EtaplesWarCemetery.html

http://robert.freeshell.org/archives/000616.html

I hadent seen those pic.... shows i live under a rock.... all the better of a reason for us to kick thier a**es. f france

"Most of western Europe opposed our war with Iraq. Russia had loaned millions to prop up Saddam. So again, why the hatred of the French in particular?"

Most of the rest of Western Europe also doesn't have a 60-year history of ????ting on the United States at every opportunity it can get.

The United States in the 1950s kept the French economy from collapsing and inflation from ruining their struggling-to-be reborn nation. By 1954, the United States was footing nearly 100% of France's intervention in Indochina.

Take a look at news reels from the time -- you can't tell whether you're looking at French troops or Americans. Uniforms, helmets, weapons, transport, artillery, just about everything the French had had Made in the USA and provided free of charge stamped on it.

Then the French get their asses handed to them at Dien Bien Phu, and hand the mess over to the US. We, unfortunately, were stupid enough to take it on.

A few years down the road? Who's screaming and moaning about the US' being such brutal colonial bastards in Vietnam?

The French...

In 1990 the French had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the coalition that pushed Iraq out of Kuwait.

They had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into passing sanctions against Iraq.

Over the subsequent 13 years, the French CONTINUALLY tried to get the sanctions either reduced or eliminated, all on "humanitarian" grounds.

One event doesn't make a situation, Cosmoline. It's the rather continuous history of French intransigence over the past 60 years that makes them despicable.

If you don't understand that -- a single instance vs. continuous BS -- then I can't help you.

Now you ask about Finland, and why we shouldn't be pissed at them...

Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that you actually have no clue as to what was going on during the Winter War, and why Finland found itself in the unique position of being "allied" (if one can even use that word) with Nazi Germany.

the French fleet under De Grasse prevented Cornwallis from being reinforced at Yorktown

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Thanks guys. I was not aware the French were the reason for that. Must have been 7th grade history. I was out half of that year with a pair of crutches and a tutor.

Ya think living on the History channel I'd have caught this by now?

Yes, do please boycott the French. It won't do them any measurable harm and it will make you feel ever so patriotic.

You know, why don't we just get right to hating and boycotting every nation that doesn't properly toady up to us?

Oh please.

Iraq, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Kuwait in 1990.

German, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it invaded Poland in 1939.

Japan, a sovereign nation, was "doing what it thought best" when it swept across China and into the Pacific in the 1930s and 1940s.

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C'mon Mike. Drawing a parallel between France trying to block an agressive act on our part and countries bent on regional, if not world domination? You're better at this than that.

And, btw, I agree that there's plenty to dislike France for. But this whole "Freedom Fries, let's punish vintners, and cheese and pen makers" deal makes no sense to me.

"Freedom Fries, let's punish vintners, and cheese and pen makers" deal makes no sense to me.

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its a decent start. hit em in the wallet where they feel it. stop tourism and hear em scream.

Golgo, augustwest. you guys see how they treat us and how they feel about all the free help over the years, and you still stick up for the ungratefull bastards?? thats beyond me.

Hell, I don't need a reason............I just don't like France.

We never did anything for the French just because we're nice. There was always some form of national interest at the heart of it. If you don't grasp that, you don't grasp international politics. Nation-states don't have "friends."

"C'mon Mike. Drawing a parallel between France trying to block an agressive act on our part and countries bent on regional, if not world domination? You're better at this than that."

The concept is the same, though, August. The French, even faced with the obvious, have largely always responded in a very negative fashion if it's an American situation.

How about this, though...

The French obviously thought they were doing the right thing when they bombed the Rainbow Warrior.

Or, I'm sure that the French thought they were doing the right thing when they were A) supplying banned arms to the Iraqis in violation of UN Sanctions for which they voted, and B) Worked tirelessly to get those sanctions either reduced or eliminated in the face of continuing Iraqi definance of the UN mandates.


"And, btw, I agree that there's plenty to dislike France for. But this whole "Freedom Fries, let's punish vintners, and cheese and pen makers" deal makes no sense to me."

I agree, the Freedom Fries thing is a bit of a stretch. How about a Freedom Poodle?

As for punishing the vintners, cheese and pen makers, how else would you suggest that a grassroots effort be made to show displeasure with a nation's policies?

That's what this largely is. It's not a US government effort to stifle French trade and tourism. It's individual Americans, pissed at the French for their continued intransigence, expressing their anger in the most effective way at their disposal.

If the American people were to collectively write the French government, the response would be "F you you fat lazy Americans!" That's not effective.

But 20 or 30 or 50 million Americans not visiting France, not buying French wine, cheese, pens, water, etc., all that loss of revenue sends a very clear message to the French government through their domestic economy. There's no surer way to make someone (singularly or collectively) sit up and take notice than to put the economic screws to them.

Quite frankly, I don't care one whit about French economics, their grape stompers, cow milkers, or knib splitters.

But the companies that make those products do care, and when they start squealing loudly enough, the French government will take notice.