Defenseless!
- Thread starter Old Guy
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The police did not rush in at Columbine or VT. also if and when they came upon a shooter they would order them to drop the weapon unless the weapon was pointed at them then they would shoot.
It certainly is better to be armed and not need it than to be unarmed.
It certainly is better to be armed and not need it than to be unarmed.
anymanusa
Member
Guys, don't confuse schools with colleges. Not all colleges are 'no gun zones'.
Sinixstar.
I have been helping out all day at the Int; Swat Round up, great time, intense competition.
So I did not see all these posts till a few minutes ago.
You do not carry a gun? You have no concept of the effectiveness of a pistol used by a competent shot in a rapid gun deployment, none.
Update, kids were chased in to the School by Police, all doors are always locked, all the time! A all black School in a poor neighborhood has no resource Officer.
The classroom I was in had 30 plus small lovely children being shown how to protect their domestic animals, and the same type of process to animals in the wild.
I am a retired firearms Instructor, 73 years of age, a very good shot, and in a room with all these lovely children, my Daughter 49 and my Wife 64, and two teachers.
For a person who has protected people for money, to be put in a place unarmed with my Family around me, I felt defenseless! Not frightened, no means of weapon defense. Not good. A sturdy door with a small window, covered by a poster. I locked it, no one noticed, when we left with all our stuff, I unlocked it.
Con. Colt said it best, I think he said it? "God created Man, Con. Colt made them equal"
I have been helping out all day at the Int; Swat Round up, great time, intense competition.
So I did not see all these posts till a few minutes ago.
You do not carry a gun? You have no concept of the effectiveness of a pistol used by a competent shot in a rapid gun deployment, none.
Update, kids were chased in to the School by Police, all doors are always locked, all the time! A all black School in a poor neighborhood has no resource Officer.
The classroom I was in had 30 plus small lovely children being shown how to protect their domestic animals, and the same type of process to animals in the wild.
I am a retired firearms Instructor, 73 years of age, a very good shot, and in a room with all these lovely children, my Daughter 49 and my Wife 64, and two teachers.
For a person who has protected people for money, to be put in a place unarmed with my Family around me, I felt defenseless! Not frightened, no means of weapon defense. Not good. A sturdy door with a small window, covered by a poster. I locked it, no one noticed, when we left with all our stuff, I unlocked it.
Con. Colt said it best, I think he said it? "God created Man, Con. Colt made them equal"
Big B
Member
My 2 cents
I can understand the op feeling helpless. Most of my job consists of installing and servicing alarm, intercom/pa, and other low voltage systems on school campuses. (elem. thru college) When its not new construction, we are servicing campuses, many of which are in session. Many of these schools are in bad parts of their respective towns, and they are in areas that I wouldn't normally go outside of work.
If i was in the same situation, I'd feel pretty helpless too. I'd feel better w/ an armed LEO in the same room/area as me, but it doesn't sound like that was the case. Police are not our personal bodyguards. They were there to help secure the area, and find the potential threat.
I don't ccw, but I will be applying in the near future. For me one of the big drawbacks of cc is that where I would really like to carry for my own protection, I can't. As far as I know I can't even legally keep a legal gun locked in my work vehicle on a school campus. The sad part is that it's the drive to and from those areas that really worries me.
The way that I see it. If I have proven to my local law enforcement, and government that I am of upstanding character and can legally carry a gun for protection, then why limit the places that I can.
I would like to see how many of these school shooters were ccw holders. I don't research things like that, but my guess is none.
I can understand the op feeling helpless. Most of my job consists of installing and servicing alarm, intercom/pa, and other low voltage systems on school campuses. (elem. thru college) When its not new construction, we are servicing campuses, many of which are in session. Many of these schools are in bad parts of their respective towns, and they are in areas that I wouldn't normally go outside of work.
If i was in the same situation, I'd feel pretty helpless too. I'd feel better w/ an armed LEO in the same room/area as me, but it doesn't sound like that was the case. Police are not our personal bodyguards. They were there to help secure the area, and find the potential threat.
I don't ccw, but I will be applying in the near future. For me one of the big drawbacks of cc is that where I would really like to carry for my own protection, I can't. As far as I know I can't even legally keep a legal gun locked in my work vehicle on a school campus. The sad part is that it's the drive to and from those areas that really worries me.
The way that I see it. If I have proven to my local law enforcement, and government that I am of upstanding character and can legally carry a gun for protection, then why limit the places that I can.
I would like to see how many of these school shooters were ccw holders. I don't research things like that, but my guess is none.
longdayjake
Member
Sinixstar,
Understanding that we fundamentally disagree about almost everything and that neither of us seem to understand one another's points or arguments, I just want to put forth some knowledge that I have aquired in my few years on the earth.
Some people prefer to be independant and completely self reliant when it comes to money, work, happiness, and in this case self defense.
Others like yourself prefer to enjoy the avenues that the government has created for your welfare and take comfort in knowing that they live in a country that is arguably most capable of caring for it's citizens.
Those that are self reliant disdainfully begrudge the government for trying to rob them of their independance. Those that enjoy government welfare programs disdainfully berate those that want less government.
One thing that is almost always true is that neither side can understand the other side. If they could then it would only make sense that the outcome would be only one side. In my mind if you could just understand what we are trying to tell you then you would agree with us. In your mind you can't understand why people are so paranoid when the government has our back.
So, try to be more polite as you disagree with people because it will only make them think you are dumb if you are rude. It will most definately not make them agree with you.
Understanding that we fundamentally disagree about almost everything and that neither of us seem to understand one another's points or arguments, I just want to put forth some knowledge that I have aquired in my few years on the earth.
Some people prefer to be independant and completely self reliant when it comes to money, work, happiness, and in this case self defense.
Others like yourself prefer to enjoy the avenues that the government has created for your welfare and take comfort in knowing that they live in a country that is arguably most capable of caring for it's citizens.
Those that are self reliant disdainfully begrudge the government for trying to rob them of their independance. Those that enjoy government welfare programs disdainfully berate those that want less government.
One thing that is almost always true is that neither side can understand the other side. If they could then it would only make sense that the outcome would be only one side. In my mind if you could just understand what we are trying to tell you then you would agree with us. In your mind you can't understand why people are so paranoid when the government has our back.
So, try to be more polite as you disagree with people because it will only make them think you are dumb if you are rude. It will most definately not make them agree with you.
Not sure if Cho from VT was CCW or not, but all his guns were completely legal.
The bigger question I have, is how did these people get guns in the first place? With little exception, these kinda things happen at the hands of highschool kids, or mentally unstable people. Neither one of which should be anywhere near a gun.
No, I just can't understand what difference being armed in that situation would bring. Great, you've got a gun. Hell - load up, take your entire safe full of guns with you.
What did that achieve?
edit:
actually, let me answer my own question here. It achieves a peace of mind in knowing that you're "defended".
I view that as somewhat of a defeatist/victim mentality though. Again, it goes back to perceived risk in balance with risk threshold. I see that mentality as a sign that either the risk is perceived to be much greater then it really is, or that your threshold is ridiculously ridiculously low.
As I mentioned before, I don't carry because I see no need to carry. I don't for a second think the cops are protecting me, or that there's not bad people in the world (i've crossed paths with more then a few). I don't view the world as being such a horribly dangerous place that I must be armed at all times. I've gotten into more then a few sketchy situations (and by sketchy i mean the kind of stuff that would probably make most of you pee your pants), and never once would the situation have ended any better had I been armed. In fact, most probably would have ended with me being dead.
So - if the argument is - it gives me the peace of mind. Fine, so be it. Have your peace of mind.
If the argument is - because otherwise i'm going to die, or my family's going to die, or some other nonsense, well - then yes, clearly we're not going to agree.
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Big B
Member
"how did these people get guns in the first place?"
How do people get illegal drugs, hot cars/computers, and traffic human slaves. There are laws against these things here in America and yet it continues to happen.
"...these kinda things happen at the hands of high school kids, or the mentally unstable, neither one of which should anywhere near a gun."
I agree about the mentally ill, but some of the best venison and quail that I ever had came from friends in high school and junior high. They fired the shots, not their parents. They also knew the value of life and how to treat a firearm.
I think that it's sad that some people use their guns for wrong. but I feel that people like Old Guy should be able to defend themselves, and in this case a room full of others, if need be.
How do people get illegal drugs, hot cars/computers, and traffic human slaves. There are laws against these things here in America and yet it continues to happen.
"...these kinda things happen at the hands of high school kids, or the mentally unstable, neither one of which should anywhere near a gun."
I agree about the mentally ill, but some of the best venison and quail that I ever had came from friends in high school and junior high. They fired the shots, not their parents. They also knew the value of life and how to treat a firearm.
I think that it's sad that some people use their guns for wrong. but I feel that people like Old Guy should be able to defend themselves, and in this case a room full of others, if need be.
indoorsoccerfrea
Member
well, Cho was classified as mentally ill by a judge in his homestate. it somehow slipped through the cracks when he purchased guns in a different state. maybe we should look into keeping better track of who SHOULDNT have handguns...
indoorsoccerfrea
Member
lets try to keep it High Road gentlemen
WVMountainBoy
Member
Hmm I don't know rather to post to this or not, it does seem like a loaded thread. I do carry a sidearm when, by law, I'm able to do so. I don't feel threatened in the environments that I can't carry in, as they are usually well protected (I can't carry at work, but I'm surrounded by armed LEO's) However I don't like going out at night to convenience stores or the such with out my sidearm. One too many of those sketchy situations. I've pulled off the lot moments before a armed robbery also chased down a few grab and dash beer thieves. I've only had to produce my weapon once in the years I've been carrying and that situation was very dynamic. I didn't have to fire, and had put in play in my mind how the threat/response counter was going to go. Knowing how local LEO works, knowing how the school admin works around here, and knowing what I've learned from the past school incidents I would feel very scared in a lock down situation. I carry a gun, I don't visit schools. I don't have much more input than that. I agree with OG in that I would be very unsure of the situation and that I would feel better about it being armed.
trackaddict88
Member
by Sinixtar
That would be nice. You made your point. You don't get it. Sorry, for you.
Now I'll read the rest of the 2nd page.
Ok all caught up.
Peace of Mind = Having the ability to do something to keep myself or my family from dying or "some other nonsense" because I am armed.
It was nice of you to "leave them to it".
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withdrawn34
Member.
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Cho was able to get his firearms because at the time, there was no provision for mental health records to be considered in a background check. I believe that now there is, at least in Virginia. I'm not sure about elsewhere, and I'm fairly certain NICS only contains criminal background information. Maybe someone else can shed some light.
As far as people like high school shooters, it appears that they either got their firearms from their parents (irresponsible parents), or from friends, like Dylan and Kiebold (columbine) got their firearms via a straw sale - one of the guys' girlfriends bought it for him (apparently she was 18).
Point is, either thing is still against the law (straw sales and allow minors unrestricted access to firearms, as well as carrying on campus, murder is also illegal, etc) and shows that if people just considered personal responsibility none of this would have EVER happened.
To me, I think we could reduce a lot of crime if we quit fighting useless battles like disarming lawful gun owners and arrested pot smokers, and instead redirecting those hundreds of millions towards more seriously combating black market sales and most especially, crooked gun dealers who apparently are responsible for arming most the criminal population. Plus, we need to get people to take more responbility for the guns they do own so that they don't get stolen by some gangbanger that robs their house one day when they're not home.
Overall, though, there needs to be economic and social changes. There's a reason why countries like Canada and Switzerland can still be armed but not have high numbers of homicide or other crime by firearm. It's a cultural and social issue - not an issue of tools.
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