M16 Stoppages!!

That was a pretty good show for a low-budget BBC production. The book, of course, was better.

So, you're in the "He-man AR-haters club"? Stand by to be flamed.

You are right, the problem is that the M-16/AR-15 gas system puts unburnt powder right into the bolt/bolt carrier and if you have any oil on the bolt i could gum things up,(i know this because i've seen it). One more reason to own and shoot an FAL

I'm a fan of the AR15/M16 but I'm not a fan of hanging things off the barrel and causing undue stress to the barrel extension and bolt lock up.


Would certainly be an interesting thing to see, an endurance test between an M16A2 mounted with an M203 against just a regular M16 A2. As heat along with debris is placed into the barrel/action I can't help but wonder how the geometry might change after a couple mags of ammo rapidly put down range in fire hose fashion.

I don't see how the M203 is going to cause any harm or increased jamming. If anything the M203 is going to act as a large heat sink and pull heat away from the barrel.

Its all in how you maintain and take care of it.Leave it dirty and it will fail you,more so in the desert.Every one has stories of failures but never any information as to what led up to the failures,Neglect probably.Navy Seals are always the first to say"When there is a problem with the M16 its usualy with the person carrying it"as far as unburnt powder in the carrier,I have gone 2000 rounds with just lube on the carrier rails and lube inside the carrier and it burned right through the rounds with no problem and this is in the rain with my bushmaster.

When there is a problem with the M16 its usualy with the person carrying it

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True... Then why don't we get a soldier-proof gun?

I completely agree with the statement and it restates the point that us M-16 haters have been trying to make all along. Any gun that needs to be treated with kid gloves has no place in a front-line military unit. I'll repeat what I've said in prior threads. I like the Armalite gun. I own a few, shoot them, and love them. They are light, accurate, and ergonomic. They point naturally and look sexy. They also jam on occasion and require cleaning to function properly. If I had to take a gun into battle, I might take the M-16... I know how to clean it and am more than willing to do it. If I had to equip an army, there is no way in HADES that I'd consider the M-16. My criteria for stopages would be very stringent. The gun needs to go bang when you pull the trigger or it's just a fancy bayonet mount and grenade-launching stock. When we have to conscript kids who can't figure out 'righty tighty, lefty loosey,' we certainly can't expect them to maintain a finicky instrument like the M-16.

torture test

My AR is coming up on it's fourth 1,000 round case with no cleaning (except for the bore of course) and not a single stoppage yet.

If your life depends on your tools, then wouldn't you do what it takes to keep your tools in working order?

Then better training needs to be implemented,if its maintained it wont jam and the desert environment amplifies it.During ww2 even the mighty M1 had its share of stoppages in africa when not maintained.The M16 is the 5.56mm weapon all others are compared to and judged by.If I had to say compare the AK with a US rifle it would be the M14 and thats a way better just as reliable rifle.And if any run of the mill soldier cant figure out the 16 and how to properly maintain it then we need to set higher intelligence standards for our armed forces.So when the 507th maintenence companies M249 and browning.50 jammed I suppose those weapons suck to?in a real bad dust storm where the fine sand accumulates would eventually jam an AK if enough crap collects.And nothing is soldier proof,soldiers just need better attitudes towoards maintaining things that keep them alive.

Every army has problems with their equipment. Before you love the AK too much let me tell you a story.

Years ago I met a former Chinese army battalion commander at my MBA program. According to him the AK had many problems that led to their adoption of a Dragunov based rifle in the 80's. Aparantly the Kalashnikov had a relatively short barrel life, a gas tube that was prone to damage, rounds sometimes cooked off during auto fire, and the lack of a gas regulator give them problems during seasonal changes. Not to mention all the accuracy and ergonomic problems civilian shooters usually talk about.

During WWII, the Germans thought the Soviets had better small arms, and vice versa. The grass is always greener on the otherside.

Since I bought it about 2 years ago, my AR has been perfectly reliable. I mean that litterally: perfect reliability, not a single malfuntion, ever. It's a DCM match rifle, with an extra tight chamber. I've put some 2,000 rounds through it so far. There was even a stretch of some 800 or 900 rounds where I wasn't able to clean it. I squirted oil into the holes in the bolt carrier once, and that was it. It just kept on chugging.

Granted, I've never tried to use my rifle under desert conditions. I can't comment on ARs in general, but my AR has been perfect. Mebbe I just got lucky...

- Roland

CZF,

Do you think that malfunctions are acceptable during a firefight
or at any time?

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Of course not!

(When they design a malfunction-free rifle, let me know... )

Years ago I met a former Chinese army battalion commander at my MBA program. According to him the AK had many problems that led to their adoption of a Dragunov based rifle in the 80's. Aparantly the Kalashnikov had a relatively short barrel life, a gas tube that was prone to damage, rounds sometimes cooked off during auto fire, and the lack of a gas regulator give them problems during seasonal changes. Not to mention all the accuracy and ergonomic problems civilian shooters usually talk about.

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Chinese AKs are known for worst QC and materials from all mass-produced AK clones. The only worse are AK clones, hand-made in small Pakistani & Afgani workshops from any iron available.

Good chrome-lined Russian AK barrel can survive more than 10 000 rounds, sometimes more than 30 000 rounds, if gun is used and cared of properly.

In addition to the above, how would the adoption of a Dragunov-based rifle address the listed problems in any way?

I've carried and fired my Chinese MAK90 in freezing rain & hail as well as 115 degree desert heat and have never had a failure. It's also reasonably accurate: certainly minute of soldier at realistic engagement ranges.

What I'm saying is all weapons have flaws, the more familiar you are with it, the more they become apparant. The M-16 has certainly breed its share of contempt.

I think the Chinese problem with their AK gas system is transitioning from extremely cold and dry to an extremely hot and humid climate. They eventually dealt with it by changing the vent holes on the gas tube. Of course it could all be a QC problem. But at the time, the Chinese army wanted a different rifle instead of improving their AK.

This pic is the one I'm refering to, the standard issue Chinese rifle from the 80's. Theoritically the Drag system should be more accurate, more controllable in automatic fire, damage to the gas tube should have no effect on the op rod. Of course just by looking at the thing, you can see it's no work of perfection either.

I believe that the Type 81 is not a Dragunov derivative. Instead, it is a modification of the Type 68, which, in turn, was a mixture of the SKS gas system (with original gas regulator) and bolt carrier with AK bolt locking.

Type 68 rifle

Badger:

"If I had to take a gun into battle, I might take the M-16"

Would YOU take it into the deserts of Iraq?

During WWII, the Germans thought the Soviets had better small arms, and vice versa. The grass is always greener on the otherside.

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This is wisdom.

CZF - So you saw a movie of a real life event where an M16 jammed and formed an opinion on the reliability of the weapon based in part on this movie? I'm sure you realize the potential problems in this...

The guys with the M16/203 rifles were yelling "stoppage!" while the FN Mini (SAWs) were blazing away.

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I did some pistol training with an ex-SBS Royal Marine Commando (Bill Davison out of Mingus, TX http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/. Sometimes we were using "Stoppage!" to communicate that we were out of the fight due to the need to reload, though it was mostly used during stoppage drills.

No doubt, that the squad actually did have jamming problems
during the actual encounters.

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Couldn't say as I was not there; but there is also a part in the book written by Andy McNab where he describes being stationed in Belize and how one of his team members refused to clean his Armalite on principle because that man felt that it was unneccessary.

My own experience with the AR series has been great - ultra-reliable as long as you can feed it with decent mags.

HKMP5SD -

I don't see how the M203 is going to cause any harm or increased jamming.

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There have been some tests suggesting that hanging stuff off the barrel and high heat combined cause the barrel extension to droop and the bolt to batter itself against the now unaligned barrel. If you'll check out the new SOPMOD Block II requirements they ask that the new rail systems free float the barrel and allow direct attachment of grenade launchers.

What really amazed me about the M16's in Bravo Two Zero was the way you can duct tape a compass to them and its accuracy(the compass not the gun, well maybe the gun too. ) is not effected! Now thats a great sales point. Or, it proves the British ARE really lost, and no wonder why!

Originally posted by Max:

I believe that the Type 81 is not a Dragunov derivative. Instead, it is a modification of the Type 68, which, in turn, was a mixture of the SKS gas system (with original gas regulator) and bolt carrier with AK bolt locking.

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I'm under the impression Type-81 isn't based on the 68. Of course I've never examined one myself. A few months back Small Arms Review had an article on the new Chinese bullpup rifle, which it said was essentially a bullpup variant of the Type-81 and used the Dragunov piston and 3-lug bolt. I did see the field stripped bullpup in another publication, which clearly shows the Dragunov piston.

Use only good quality proven magazines in your AR15. Search this site or THR for plenty of suggestions. Crummy mags are often the cause of AR jams. Download your mags by a few rounds as well.

Although the "keep it clean" rule is number one, do not over lubricate your AR. From what I have seen, that is one of the worst things you can do to attract powder residue. I like CLP Breakfree for this purpose because the petroleum carrier for the teflon drys quickly and does not attract dirt like gun oil does.

Good quality ammo that burns clean of course is recommended. Russian Wolf has a bad rep in this regard and sometimes white box Win. Very cheap stuff though.

The AR15/M16 is amazingly simple to field strip and keep clean, so there really is no excuse not to do so. I work with a guy who was a Lt. in the Gulf War, and said one of the most important things he did was to drill into his guys to know and keep their rifle clean. He had no complaints with his M16 and recently bought his own AR15 Bushy A2.

I got an AK. And I have an AR. If I didn't have the cleaning supplies or was too ignorant to know how to keep my weapon clean, I would have to side with the AK. But the AR is so much more accurate, lighter, ergonomic, perhaps more deadly, and far more adaptable, that it clearly is the better weapons system for well trained and well supplied soldiers. I much prefer to shoot my AR over my AK any day.

Guilty pleasure though - that AK (mine is a SAR1) is like a cur dog. Kick it, leave it out in the rain, make it sleep in the dirt, but as long as you keep feeding it (ammo), it will keep coming back for more. Of course, it is not even as accurate as my Mini-14, but it does always shoot and I confess, although I have not had a jam in my AR, I do baby her. The AR might be the better rifle for the professional, but there is no mistaking this, my third world guerilla army would sling the AK.

Bartholomew Roberts,

SOPMOD Block II requirements

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Didn't know that. Time to go track down a copy of the requirements and learn something new.

I have read some M16 bashing threads on the internet over the years. But this is the first time I ever read one that was based on something they saw in a movie. I think that speaks for itself.
On another note, in the book Bravo Two Zero, which was written by a guy that has been there done that, A real commando and not one of the internet variety; Andy specifically says that the SAS team members who participated in this mission CHOSE the M16 rifle (or as he calls them, Armalites). It was their own choice. They should have checked the internet boards or rented some movies before making that decision instead of relying on their own experience as members of one of the world's elite spec-ops teams.