Afghanis now training with M 16s
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I'm sorry Mike you are incorrect. Do you have any actual experience with the M16 series of weapons (Army or Marine Infantryman) or are you just going by all of the BS that's posted on the internet. As I type this post I can look up on the wall behind my monitor and see the 8x10 photo of a squad from 6th Battalion, 110th Brigade of the Honduran Army that I worked with on a deployment in July of 1990. They were armed with ancient M16A1s, most of them had all of the finish worn off and our armorer ran out of spare parts replacing things like cracked buttstocks, springs on the ejection port covers frozen front sights......the list goes on an on. When we left country we cannibalized our own weapons to bring their up to standard. But you know what? Every one of them was functional.
I saw M16A1s that we had left in Vietnam that were then sent to the Sandanistas that had been captured in border incidents in Honduras. Some of them were severely corroded around the front of the magazine well from sweat from being handled so much. Yet every one was functional.
The M16 soldiers on in the hands of 3d world armies and insurgent groups all over the world and still kills people. It doesn't require a sterile battlefield and the statements about the tolerances being too tight is just BS. All you need to do to keep an M16 running is to keep it wet. If you don't have LSA, CLP or some other proper lubricant, there are several field expedients that will work, motor oil, automatic transmission fluid, 3 in 1 oil, I've even seen USGI issue insect repellent work. Ideally you don't want to use substitutes for long, but they will keep the weapon operational.
We abandoned 100s of thousands of M16s in Southeast Asia in 1975. They are still killing people all over the world in the most primitive conditions you can imagine.
I can promise you both there is a much bigger factor at work here. It is the one that heavily influence all defense procurements. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Where are those rifles made and who gets the checks for them?
Some of you seem to not understand that not all of these people are terrorist and that afghanis are hardly a monolithic group. In fact I would contend that the members of the ANA and to an even greater degree the ANP have felt the efects of terrorism and extremism more than you. Look at the death tolls of the ANP compaired to those of coalition forces. It is staggering. I am sure that you would burst an attery and with good reason if our troops were insulted and painted with such a broad brush. There are a lot of Afghanis putting themselves in harms way in an effort to build the fledling institutions of that state. They deserve more respect than some of the bigoted ignorant comments found on this thread.
I do not know if it will succeed and there are some other very difficult and crucial element to deal with but the civil mission to Afghanistan makes it an imcomparable situation. We are not merely arming our enemy's enemies with blind disregard and zero follow up. We are attempting state building. They are two radically different things.
Read the above, twice. If you want to make acusations of arming terrorists there are much better cases to try to use. The guys we are arming these gentleman to fight come to mind amongst others.
MD_Willington
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Canada already gave them a pile of M16's....
were giving them brand new Colt and F&N rifles. payed for by tax payers. theres nothing "old" "used" "surplus" or "extra" about them
heres a video of the Iraqis trading in thier AK's for shiney new M16 ( A4's i believe) straight outta the box
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_teTvdAMX4
Hmm. i may stand corrected.
though, as far as i know, the Marines never switched to the M4.
http://arsicsouth7.wordpress.com/20...rmy-swaps-ak47s-for-m16s-pickups-for-humvees/
though, as far as i know, the Marines never switched to the M4.
Beagle-zebub
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That's what I was thinking, though they did shift to issuing the M4 to senior non-commissioned officers, chief warrant officers, and junior officers, replacing the M9.
HorseSoldier
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There are still M16s and M16A1s kicking around Southeast Asia in the hands insurgent types that were left there after the US left and the ARVN went under . . .
Ignition Override
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mljdeckard:
As for those F-14 Tomcats, when the Shah's govt was losing the fight in Iran, Grumman technicians disabled the fire-control systems in all of their F-14s, or at least the systems to required operate the (multiple, long-range) Phoenix missiles etc.
Mike the Wolf:
I've read those comments before about the Pentagon's (State Dept's?) desire to only arm an unstable country with a rifle which might not function under adverse conditions/maintenance.
Nearby Peshawar, Pakistan also has a gun industry in various small shops. They seem to be able to copy various weapons.
Even former Monty Python comedian Michael Palin went to one or two Peshawar gun shops during his Asian dvd trip, enroute to the Khyber Pass.
These guys might be in deep trouble due to license infringement.
As for those F-14 Tomcats, when the Shah's govt was losing the fight in Iran, Grumman technicians disabled the fire-control systems in all of their F-14s, or at least the systems to required operate the (multiple, long-range) Phoenix missiles etc.
Mike the Wolf:
I've read those comments before about the Pentagon's (State Dept's?) desire to only arm an unstable country with a rifle which might not function under adverse conditions/maintenance.
Nearby Peshawar, Pakistan also has a gun industry in various small shops. They seem to be able to copy various weapons.
Even former Monty Python comedian Michael Palin went to one or two Peshawar gun shops during his Asian dvd trip, enroute to the Khyber Pass.
These guys might be in deep trouble due to license infringement.
KBintheSLC
Member
Huh??? Iran? What does Iran have to do with Afghanistan?
Iran supported the Shiite militias in Iraq... they hardly have any hands in the Afghanistan issue. Are you confusing them with Pakistan, or do you just think that all Muslims are one and the same?
I believe that the Taliban/Mujahideen was once considered "a US friendly force" as well. Saddam Hussien and his Sunni leadership was once considered "a US friendly force" as well.
The problem is that we have a long history of arming and training foreign fighters that later turn against us. The people of Afghanistan generally have a very strong sense of national pride. They will only be our pals as long as our interests align with theirs. Don't think they will stick with us in the long-term because they feel they owe us a favor. Afterall, we are good buddies with Israel... making us nothing more than infidels, crusaders, and Zionists in the eyes of Muslim nations.
Study your history a bit and you will understand my concerns with arming these guys.
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Iran you will see is right next to Afghanistan and shares a significant border. If you ever crack the papers you might be aware that Sec. Clinton has flaoted the idea of including Iran in discussions and negotiations concerning Af/Pak. Iran is a player in Afghanistan.
You could not possibly be more incorrect. They have been deeply involved in Afghanistan for a very long time.
I agree that the post you are referencing likely confused his talking points and doesn't capture the nuances of Iran's relation to afghanistan or the likely consequences of withdrawl. That said acting like Iran is totally unrelated is wrong.
Yes Iran is largely anti Taliban. It is also true that Iran is a very influencial neighbor in Afghanistan.
As you can see we don't stick with people either because we feel we owe them a favor. That is simply not how international relations work.
There are some major differences between the cases you cite and Afghanistan. Notably, the civil mission there. The PRTs, the economic aid, the efforts to create institutions and civil society. Schools and other infastructure are being built. Elections are being held. Efforts are beign made to create a democratically accountable government, a real police force and army. This is not just arming a group to strike an enemy. It is unique. The DOD has not tried to do anything like it before. They literally had to go hire new people because it was outside of what they did. I don't know if it will work but to compare arming the ANA and th ANP to arming the Mujhadine that fought the soviets or Iraqis that fought the post revolutionary Iranians, or a number of other such examples is mistaken.
Indeed.
Duke of Doubt
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mljdeckard: "Iran is STILL flying those F-14s."
And gradually losing their fleet, one delightful desert dart at a time. Some smart fellas are keeping count.
Meanwhile, while nobody was keeping close count, some of those Iraqi planes which flew to Iran in 1991 -- remember those? -- have gone missing. Some good stories behind that, I'd imagine.
And gradually losing their fleet, one delightful desert dart at a time. Some smart fellas are keeping count.
Meanwhile, while nobody was keeping close count, some of those Iraqi planes which flew to Iran in 1991 -- remember those? -- have gone missing. Some good stories behind that, I'd imagine.
Quickill
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This whole thing seems like a waste of effort and money to me. I mean I'm all for helping but how about we help some of our own citizens first.
I know of a few areas in this country where new schools need to be built. Hell in my own hometown the city council, because of federal budget cuts, just had to decide between heating the school and fixing a leak in the roof.
I'm of the opinion and I believe a lot are, is that you help your own people first and then when your problems are under control at home you reach out to those who need (and here's the kicker) WANT help.
These people (I know I'm talking generalities here) have been fighting since Christ was a carpenter. A few new schools and spiffy police uniforms aren't going to change things.
I'd like to see that one here as well.
I know of a few areas in this country where new schools need to be built. Hell in my own hometown the city council, because of federal budget cuts, just had to decide between heating the school and fixing a leak in the roof.
I'm of the opinion and I believe a lot are, is that you help your own people first and then when your problems are under control at home you reach out to those who need (and here's the kicker) WANT help.
These people (I know I'm talking generalities here) have been fighting since Christ was a carpenter. A few new schools and spiffy police uniforms aren't going to change things.
I'd like to see that one here as well.
Duke of Doubt
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Quickill: "I'm of the opinion and I believe a lot are, is that you help your own people first and then when your problems are under control at home you reach out to those who need (and here's the kicker) WANT help."
Here's the rub -- the problems are never "under control." If you asked a 1959 American whether the streets were safe, he'd say no. If you asked a 1959 American whether taxes were too high and government too big, he'd say yes.
Quickill: "These people (I know I'm talking generalities here) have been fighting since Christ was a carpenter. A few new schools and spiffy police uniforms aren't going to change things."
Had an Afghani Pashtun trader travelled the Silk Road westward in, oh, 1100 A.D. and visited Berlin, Paris and London, he'd have concluded western Europe was hopelessly backward and violent. Had he visited Arizona Territory in 1876 by time machine, he'd say much the same.
Here's the rub -- the problems are never "under control." If you asked a 1959 American whether the streets were safe, he'd say no. If you asked a 1959 American whether taxes were too high and government too big, he'd say yes.
Quickill: "These people (I know I'm talking generalities here) have been fighting since Christ was a carpenter. A few new schools and spiffy police uniforms aren't going to change things."
Had an Afghani Pashtun trader travelled the Silk Road westward in, oh, 1100 A.D. and visited Berlin, Paris and London, he'd have concluded western Europe was hopelessly backward and violent. Had he visited Arizona Territory in 1876 by time machine, he'd say much the same.
The Deer Hunter
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You need to have more faith in what the military is doing in the middle east. Yeah, they look like they guys shooting at our soldiers, but that doesn't count for much.
Take a look at our own society; the government allows people to have firearms. There are criminals that commit horrible crimes everyday, and they look just like you and I. When you are buying a box of ammo and you see a guy buying a Glock, do you think: "I can't believe we allow these people to have such a weapon?"? I doubt it.
Think about it.
HorseSoldier
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If you ever get a chance to spend some time in Herat, Afghanistan, I'd urge you to just ask the Iranians kicking around the area what they have to do with their neighboring nation. They might be hard to spot from a distance, since Dari -- one of the more major languages in Afghanistan -- is basically just a dialect of the Farsi spoken in Iran, but they're around.
Iran was and is a major player in Afghanistan and have been for something like the last 2000 years. More recently they were anti-Taliban and working in opposition to our "friends" in Pakistan despite also being anti-American. It's a complicated part of the world, but it's also a part of the world where Iran wants to be a major player.
"US friendly forces" is saying a bit more than is realistic, I think. In both cases it was more simply a case of convenience and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Equating the Taliban directly with the Afghan mujahedeen is also a bit simplistic and inaccurate.
RevolvingCylinder
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:banghead:I stand corrected. I wasn't thinking Iraq for whatever reason when I typed that. Afghanistan would just be fully taken back over by the Taliban warlords even though there still stands a chance of Iran meddling there. Here's my ship of fail:
Guns and more
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Let's see, The Russians armed the Afghans, then we armed the Afghans against the Russians, now we're arming the Afghans against the Taliban. There's probably more guns in Afghanistan than people. Tomorrow, they'll be shooting at us.
B. Since when does the City Council decide the school budget?
C. Perhaps they should have considered #3. No bonuses for administrators.....blasphemy!
My fine school board asked teachers to take two days off without pay, but the top university administrators got a $20,000 bonus.
Always a bad idea.
A. There is no such thing as a Federal budget cut. Government defines a cut as a 10% increase instead of a 12% increase.
B. Since when does the City Council decide the school budget?
C. Perhaps they should have considered #3. No bonuses for administrators.....blasphemy!
My fine school board asked teachers to take two days off without pay, but the top university administrators got a $20,000 bonus.
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
This has pretty well andered off into the complex politics of that part of the world...
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