SCAR bummer

I am a scar fan. In-fact, I am trading off my black, #386 of the first 500 for a tan one tomorrow. I just like the tan over the black. I love it, get into HUGE arguments on the web over it. Guys just will bash it any chance they get. I really do not understand that.

Give it 50 years like the AR has had, and I bet it will be all that and a bag of chips. I frikken love my scar 16s!

I'll be a lot more excited about the SCAR when they have more barrels and barrels in more calibers available. I would love to be able to quickly change from a shorty 5.56 to a 24" target barrel 5.56 to a shorty 458 SOCOM, to a 300 black out, to a ???. Or on the 17S go from a 16 or18" 308 barrel to a 26" 260 Remington to a .243. Until then it just doesn't do anything a Noveske AR wont, so I have a hard time justifying the money.

Right now, the lack of available spare parts, barrels, and bolts is it's own warning.

As for recoil management, an AR with a decent comp can and will do the same. In fact, claiming the bolt rocks back and forth is bothersome - so did my HK, it wasn't perfect by any stretch.

Simple caution says wait for the IC trials to finish and see who gets selected. Frankly, SCAR fans should hope they fail - a major contract will put off spare parts and catering to the public sector for at least 5 years. FN will probably keep marketing the gun, and some nations will pick it up, unless there's an insane amount of production and sale to the public, it's going to be a niche gun. Think AR10/AR180 - some issue, largely a coffee table chapter of another exotic weapon.

Like the SCAR for what it is, if the LSAT ever gets into production, brass cartridge firing guns will immediately be a curio or relic of the old school days, just like polymer has largely taken over the pistol market. For them, if it's not plastic, it can't be issue.

The 308 doesn't hammer. It's a pretty mild round.
A set of weights to build your upper body is money better spent than the price of a scar over an AR for recoil control.

That's the plan, last I read FN plans on making the 17 lower compatible with a bunch of different uppers, sniper, DMR, infantry, 5.56 kit, etc. I guess the 16 will be phased out? They also have a new grenade launcher to replace the M203. FN seems to want to make the 17 lower capable of accepting uppers to replace everything except the machine gun that each squad is issued.

From what I read your looking at, at least 18 months for it to trickle into the civilian market. The platform is to new, give it another 10 years and you will be able to get uppers and such for it.

I look at the Scar as an evolution of the Fn49, and Fal, ie its the battle rifle perfected. After now 70 years of experience around the world with probably 100 different army's; FN has taken that experience and perfected it with 21st century technology and engineering.

The FAl marched around the world, and the 49 if history went a bit differently for FN could have given the Garand a real run for its money in WW2. FN knows how to make world class firearms they have one heck of a track record.

delete

delete

Ooh, the hater-ade is pretty strong. What we do have is a piston trumps all DI's thread.

The controls on the SCAR are there because they copied the M16. If they are enhanced, it's because humans keep asking for more ergonomic ways to handle the gun with both hands - a recent combat development not used much, except in urban warfare or on a three gun range. It's basically enhancing a very limited application, not a general contribution to field warfare or shooting.

As for how either works internally, FN has to deal with Colt's TDP and legal issues engineering a weapon to sell to a government that protected one maker for decades. It's still a monopoly as Colt gets royalties even if the government buys from others. It's just as bad as the AK dominance in the third world, what other choice is there?

As for redirecting gas into the operating parts, most cluelessly make the claim. In real life, screw on a suppressor and see how much gas is dumped in the action from a closed barrel - a large portion of it must vent out the chamber after the baffles close behind the bullet. ALL self loading actions do this. Whether the DI system suffers from it is actually not a problem, it's been demonstrated the gun can fire ten basic loads of ammo, dry, before having problems. That's nearly impossible to accomplish in duty use, no one carries 2,400 rounds of ammo, and they do wipe it down more than once a day in use. You have to, environmental contamination is the primary source of dirt, not gas residue. As for suppressors, they are a major element as the Improved Carbine trials spell out their inclusion.

As for the SCAR being the perfection of a combat weapon, SOCOM didn't think so, as their primary reason stated for not buying more was "It doesn't do anything better than the M4." If serious combat and CQC experts say that, ignore it as you wish. They get M4's for free, it saves retraining time to stick with them, too.

I am finishing up an AR build, and the parts came from a number of different sources and makers. The SCAR comes from 1, one, counting, just one. Having owned an HK91 in the day, I understand very well the literal years of waiting and gunshow searching for little things like a Euro handguard, or an affordable claw mount that didn't cost twice what I paid for the gun. It's not that bad for the SCAR, entirely because it copies so much of the M16 - grip, rails, etc. It's not using much new in that regard, and adds nothing to the perfection that obviously needed nothing more from FN.

Financially, you can get two AR's for the price, don't kid yourself the SCAR would outlast them on round count or staying in working condition. It's already proven an AR can go 50,000 rounds with nothing more than casual cleaining and lube. However much more the SCAR is perfected, getting two AR's trumps it in all respects. For the money, they will go twice as far.

Some of us have chugged the koolade in the past, we survived it, and learned to look at things with some good old fashioned money sense. For the money, the AR is much the better deal. It just launches a bullet, we don't need to pay twice as much for very little more. Another $200 will enhance it for most of the little needed performance we could ever need.

Charging the weapon without breaking cheek weld? I looked into that, sounded like it was the snitz, discovered it happens under rare tactical situations that are an extremely advanced skill level. I never needed to do it serving 22 years as a Reservist Infantry/MP soldier.

The SCAR is basically an updated piston version of the M16, not the next great leap forward. If it shot caseless ammo sitting on the Boxmart shelf for 25c a round, there would be very little discussion by me, I'd be saving pennies picked up in the parking lot. But, no, it's just another gun, it doesn't do anything more we need it to do - even including highly trained professionals.

It's not all that.

I love the operating system, which is, by all accounts, very reliable. I love the adjustable gas regulator. I love the light weight. I love the charging handle setup. However, I don't like the short sight radius and short, stubby handguards. I also don't like how the handguard is a quad rail rather than modular.

I understand the reason for the short handguards... it has to work with all length barrels... but I still don't like the fact that no matter what length barrel you have, you are stuck with stubby little carbine-length handguards.

I like how you can customize an AR-15 to be exactly how you want it.

The stock is ugly too : )

#1- A charging handle that I can operate w/o breaking my cheek weld.
#2- A rifle designed from the ground up with a gas piston system.
#3- Ambidexterous controls that arent jerry rigged after conception
#4- Folding, completely adjustable stock
#5- Full length top rail
#6- A robust bolt with an equally robust extractor
#7- A good, clean, well designed trigger that isnt an a custom $300 drop in
#8- The list could go on

Click to expand...

1 - nearly irrelevant and rarely used.
2 - admittedly this is a great selling point.
3 - completely irrelevant to a righty like me.
4 - great if that matters aka you're going to conceal it or ride into combat. otherwise a nice feature but not that important.
5 - many AR15s and others offer this now.
6 - the AR15 bolt and extractor isn't robust? news to me!
7 - i've shot many ARs and M4s and never had a complaint over the stock trigger
8 - on and on ... like the SCAR costs anywhere from 2 to 6 times the price of a M4/AR15...

I have a lot of trigger time on semi-auto and full auto M4s.

I've also fired the SCAR in semi-auto and full auto in both 5.56 and .308. Sure, a great rifle. No doubt about it. Lots of really cool features. If the price were close I'd take the SCAR. But with a price difference of 2-6 times ... no thanks. I'll pass. Kudos to those that buy and test them. Someday that may make them more affordable for me!

In the meantime, I'd rather have like 5 M4s.

My only complaints are the weird-looking stock, the fixed trigger guard (is it really that hard to change the design to use existing AR trigger guards?), and the fact they come with the now-absurd A2-style pistol grip when there's so many more to choose from out there (it is changeable and compatible with AR grips, right?).

This mass of metal rocks back and fourth over the center of gravity and actually brings your sights right back on target given proper shooting mechanics are employed.

Click to expand...

Meh. The playing around I got to do with an actual Mk 16 (.mil, not .civ) led me to conclude it was nice, but not a significant improvement over the AR. I certainly was using proper shooting mechanics and didn't notice the gun's design driving it back onto target any more than my issue M4 or personal AR.

Basically what I am getting at is this. The SCAR is not the "wheel re-invented" it is the "battle rifle perfected" I get so sick of all these dolled up, pimped out AR's that are nothing more than ill-concieved attempts at improving flawed designs. When you inject hot gas and carbon into the mechanics of the gun your bound for trouble. Would you pipe the exhaust from your car into your air intake?! Same concept.

Click to expand...

Not really. Never had a problem keeping my issue M4A1 running with minimal care and feeding. It's just not that difficult in the real world, with proper training. The choke point often being that the .mil fails to properly train M4/M16 operators on what needs to be done.

SCAR

If the price drops I would buy one but that would have to be a hefty price drop and bring it below 1500.

Lakedaemonian said:

I would really appreciate it if this doesnt turn into a piston -vs- di war.

Click to expand...

Lakedaemonian said:

I get so sick of all these dolled up, pimped out AR's that are nothing more than ill-concieved attempts at improving flawed designs. When you inject hot gas and carbon into the mechanics of the gun your bound for trouble. Would you pipe the exhaust from your car into your air intake?!

Click to expand...

lol, didn't take long for you to disregard your own request.

why had no one mentioned that the magical "recoil management" system is just a PWS muzzle brake that can be added to any AR for $100 plus shipping?

that said, SCARS are cool, but pointless if you already have a quality AR. suppressor users would be the exception.

Still waiting on the pics?
Personally, I think they're pretty cool for what they are, just don't like them. Then again, I'm not a fan of AR's either. I prefer blue steel and wood guns. Nothing against the Tupperware guns, they're just not for me.
However, I do like to look at these military style guns, and am amazed at the abuse they're designed to take.