whats wrong with 10mm?

I love this forum. I'm a dedicated 40S&W and .45 shooter and reloader. That said, my next pistol will be a S&W 610 or 310. I just sold a .380 Colt Pony and a Taurus 450 to finance the purchase...I just need to find one.

I'm thinking I can shoot 40s to my hearts content at the range and a few 10mm. If I want to reload the 10mm, my Dillon .40 dies can be readjusted to do so. One thing about revolvers with moon clips...you don't have to chase the brass.

My plan would be to keep .40 SD rounds in the pistol for home defense, but it would be nice to have some good, hot 10mm for when I am in the back country for bears. This are not the Alaska brownies...but smaller NW bears.

BTW, I went shooting with a friend and his new Glock 29. He had a variety of ammo including Double-Tap and some other very hot loads. I have Glock 36 and while I would say the recoil was noticeably greater, it was not uncomfortable and I shot it pretty well (for a brand new pistol).

So I am not concerned with having a S&W 310 being 28oz...I'm probably more torn over having a 2.75" barrel rather than a 4 or 5" barrel.

The 10 mm is a great round. The G 20 is really fun and accurate, and as far as cost it cost about 2 cents more a shot than my .40 cal. Really reloading it is the only way to go, and it is a great round. More potent than the .45.

What are the benefits? What does it do that a .45, .40, or 9mm doesn't? Maybe stop game? I'll grant that. But if accuracy is more important in self defense against other humans, I think most agree that accuracy and followups are more important. This comes from training - which is easier with inexpensive and readily available ammo.

I found the 10mm in my Glock to be very snappy, causing inaccuracy due to recoil.

The ammo is rare and expensive.

I have large hands (can palm a basketball) and found the grip of the 10mm Glock on the large side. Would be difficult to conceal due to added thickness.

If you're reloading the 10mm to SAAMI specs/pressures pushing a 180gr @ 1300fps -carry on.
Full pressure/SAAMI spec loads will not cycle through the un-supported chambers of the combat tupperware(Glocks)

If you don't reload,purchase a 40 Short & Weak.

The ammo is rare and expensive.

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10mm is not rare, and SD ammo can be pricey, but you don't really need than a few carry mags worth of it.My local gun shop always has it and there are half dozen on line vendors who sell it. Georgia Arms sells 180g FMJ for 20 bucks per 50. That's about the price of WWB 45 ACP.

I've been mostly a wheel gunner for most of my life. I carried an S&W Model 19 (.357) with 4" barrel for 35 years while hiking and backpacking. I also used it for bullseye competitions out to 50 yd. and in Hunter Sil. competition out to 100 meters.

But 5 years ago I decided to give the Glock 20 a try for use as a trail or "woods" gun. It is about the same overall size as my model 19 .357, and both weapons weigh the same (about 40 oz.) when fully loaded. But the revolver is carrying 6 rds. while the G20 is loaded with 15 or 16 rounds. The 10mm is definitely more powerful than the .357 mag. when both are used in weapons having comparable overall barrel lengths. A .357 revolver with a 3" barrel has the same overall (rifled barrel + chamber) barrel length as the G20 with its 4.6" barrel. When I hand load my M19 .357 and my G20 to their maximum levels, I can get about 1200 fps with a 158 gr. jacketed bullet from the 4" barrell .357 (5.6' overall barrel length) compared to 1200 fps with a 200 gr jacketed bullet from the G20 with its 4.6" barrel. With those loads, the perceived recoil (to me) seems milder with the G20 and accurate followup shots with the G20 are much faster than with the S&W revolver with the same weight. The only things my .357 mag with the 4" barrel can do better than my G20 is slow precise single action target style shooting at longer distances and the convenient use of snake shot rounds up close. Also, before I did a grip reduction on my gen 3 G20, the grip of the revolver fit my large hand much better than the blocky humped grip on the G20. The better grip (along with decades of practice) on the revolver made the revolver a little faster for drawing and firing the first shot than the G20.

So my .357 revolver has gone into retirement while the G20 is riding on my hip whenever I am hiking or backpacking. For me, the G20 10 mm makes a .357 revolver with a 4" or shorter barrel seem almost obselete for many purposes. (I still haven't been able to shoot the heads off of rabbits or grouse with my G20, though.)

The 10 mm is my favorite centerfire cartridge for use in a semi-auto, but I hesitate to recommend it to others. I see it as a niche or specialist round for use by a hunter or use as a woods gun, but only if the 10 mm shooter has large enough hands to grip the G20 firmly with one hand. And I think the 10mm shooter needs to handloads his own ammo. Without hand loading, you are restricted to ordering ammo over the internet from 2 or 3 small ammo makers if you want ammo that is loaded to the full power potential of the 10mm. In addition, my gen 3 G20 required the purchase of an aftermarket barrel when I wanted fully supported case heads for long case life and for safer use with maximum loads and lead bullets. (Those problems were associated with the Glock barrel; they are not inherent to the 10mm cartridge.)

Even though I've killed two mule deer bucks at about 50 yards with my 4" barrel .357, I really think the 10mm (even with a 6" barrel) and the .357 with a 4" barrel are barely adequate for such use. I much prefer to use a .44 mag. with a 6" barrel for hunting deer and larger game.

I see no reason to get a 10mm for use as a PD weapon when dealing with 2 legged varmints. Over penetration is not an issue inherent with the 10 mm if bullets designed for SD are used. With a properly constructed bullet, the 10 mm may penetrate only an inch or two deeper than the .40 S&W with the same bullet, but the greater velocity of the 10mm bullet will result in a lot more expansion (according to data from Double Tap.)

Nevertheless, the 10 mm offers no significant practical advantages over the 40 S&W for such use. The .40 S&W is underrated in IMO. A .40 S&W pistol with a 4" barrel can fire a 155 gr. jacketed bullet at about the same velocity (or slightly faster) as a .357 mag revolver with 4" barrel (true overall barrel length = 5.6") can propel a 158 gr JHP (about 1200 fps) when both are using standard factory loads from Fedremchester. A 10mm firing factory loads from Hornady or Fedremchester will only beat the .40 S&W by a liile bit. The .40 S&W is an effective round for SD and it can be used in a pistol which will fit most shooter's hands better and will typically recoil less than the G20.

But for me, the 10mm is accurate, powerful, and fun to shoot. The G20 makes a pretty good lightweight "woods" gun for the shooter with large enough hands to grip it firmly and to shoot it accurately using only one hand.

Said it before and I'l say it again still shooting 40 S@W out of my g20 over 2 years now . No problems at all and I have 24 lb recoil spring. Let the flames begin.

leadcounsel said:

What are the benefits? What does it do that a .45, .40, or 9mm doesn't? Maybe stop game? I'll grant that. But if accuracy is more important in self defense against other humans, I think most agree that accuracy and followups are more important. This comes from training - which is easier with inexpensive and readily available ammo.

I found the 10mm in my Glock to be very snappy, causing inaccuracy due to recoil.

The ammo is rare and expensive.

I have large hands (can palm a basketball) and found the grip of the 10mm Glock on the large side. Would be difficult to conceal due to added thickness.

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The biggest benefit is penetration and defeating barriers. The 10mm will punch through windshield glass and car doors with ease. This may not be what most CCW holders look for in their defensive weapon but for those that do, its a plus.

I dont carry my S&W 1006 around inside city limits much because of weight and size. If I do, its open carry. When im hiking/fishing/camping/hunting, the 10mm is always on my hip and the other pistols stay home. In the realm of a good "woods gun" the 9mm, 40S&W and .45ACP dont hold a candle next to the 10mm.

Just picked up a G20 SF last week. Love it!

I tried to like the G20 - I really did. The grip is just too puny and slippery.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 10mm. I just can't warm up to any of the current production guns chambered in the caliber.

What's WRONG with the 10mm?

Well, it was apparently the consensus of the law enforcement community at the time (which basically meant they heard what the FBI said and took it as gospel), that the 10mm cartridge was physically too long (grip circumference), and had recoil too harsh for female officers to handle.

The cartridge was shortened, and the shortened cartridge became the .40 S&W.

The problem with the FBI's logic is that a 10mm 1911 like the Delta Elite had a grip circumference much smaller than the double stack .40 caliber pistols that flooded the law enforcement market, and the .40 still has a reputation for snappy recoil. But you can't really argue with the marketing success that the .40 has had.

I'm a big 10mm fan, always have been and probably always will be. Every time someone asks me if they should get a .40, I tell them the story on how the .40 was made from the 10mm, and more than half of the time, they're sold on the 10mm from that alone.

The FBI decided the 10mm round was too harsh during the evaluation phase of their cartridge evaluations. It is a myth that it was because women agents could not handle it. There may have been women in the testing phase but that is not the reason they went with the 10mm FBI load. When the S&W 1076's starting having reliability issues, Smith went to Winchester and the 40 S & W was born so that a 9mm rame could be used while keeping the ballisitics of the 10mm FBI load.

What's WRONG with the 10mm?

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Great Hoppin' Thomas Edison, have you ever touched one off while your near the wall of an indoor shooting range? Heavier loads will ring your bell through muffs and plugs!!!!

Other than that...nothing is wrong except it's just not a "mainstream" cartridge. As a hand-loader I love it. I've done more research and experimenting on 10mm than almost anything else and come up with safe loads that will do anything I need from a handgun round and then some.

I would like to have one, but the Glock is the only one I could afford and even the 20SF is too large for my hands.

I like the stock car/open wheel racing analogy. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with 10mm. It's just not as popular as 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

Now, if you think popularity makes something "right", I give you Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga.

My 10mm (Glock 20) is a hunting gun and backup woods gun ... because of the penetration I can get with the round in a semi-automatic platform with a 15+1 capacity. I've seen the debate (and even been involved myself a couple times) that says .44 Magnum or .357 Magnum or some other round is the be-all, end-all round for backup, but I have yet to find a combination of power, penetration and capacity that beats 10mm. If I don't have a rifle in my hands and I'm trying to take out a charging 500 lb wild boar or grizzly, I want all three!

Ammo availability? Non-issue. Red Herring. You can buy brass, powder and bullets from any one of a number of online retailers if you want to reload. Most good-sized outdoor outfitters carry a decent selection. Or, if you're like me, and you have a buddy who's an ammunition manufacturer ... you can get whatever you want custom made to meet your needs at a price that compares to el-cheapo .45 ACP ammo.

So are you looking for a pistol, or a carbine rifle that chambers 10mm?

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Both. I shoot both.

It's nice being able to share ammo between a pistol and a carbine. Course, if you're going to go to the trouble of lugging around a carbine, you could certainly argue the case of going with a more powerful cartridge.

As others have indicated, if you reload, the ammo issue is out the window.

As for the .40S&W. Well, it seems like a solution for a problem that didn't really exist to me. I refer to it as the 10mm Kurtz.


-Matt

I too am a 10mm fan and own two. Finding the brass again for reloading is an issue with this round as it does fling it quite a ways.

Availability is not an issue due to the internet and shipping. If you want to pick it up locally, that's fine, but don't whine at us because you don't want to order off the internet. It's a really weak, I'm too lazy, argument.

I just bough some 10 mm FMC remington at Bass proshops this week.
I beleive Colt is going to start production again , and I think Wilson and Kinber are allready offering them.
BTW the 40 S & W was also known as the 40 short and wimpy.
I have a 10 mm 1911 I fitted a 40 S & W barrel so I can shoot it more often.

I have shot a friend's witness, it was fun, very accurate and had no recoil to speak of, but it costs too much to shoot without reloading. I hope it becomes more popular and therefore goes down in price.

It's not for eveyone, but anyone that reloads has already eliminated the main complaints: availability and cost. It loads for about the same as 40 S&W and .45ACP.

10mm is a great round.

You get greater than .357 Magnum performance with less felt recoil than a .357 magnum because the auto action eats up a lot of the felt recoil. With a revolver the recoil impulse goes straight to the hand, but in an auto it gets spread over the distance the recoil spring is compressed.



There is certainly people that might find it too stout. But if you can handle a .357 Magnum then you can certainly handle the 10mm Auto.
Some guns such as the Glocks with a low bore axis are very easy to shoot and are actually more pleasant to shoot than a .357 Magnum revolver loaded with full power rounds.



The .357 Magnum was a dominant round many places for a good part of last century. It was considered great for the woods and a great self defense round. The 10mm Auto does similar things and can even be a little more powerful in energy figures while having less felt recoil.



Many of the early problems after the FBI adoption had more to do with using a standard .45ACP recoil spring that tarnished the gun's reputation.
The .45ACP spring is not enough for the 10mm Auto, and so it let the slide slam back and forth like a pendulum. This both battered the gun and increased felt recoil and muzzle rise.
Rather than fix the recoil spring they downloaded the round to work with the recoil spring. By the time the recoil spring was fixed the FBI lite load had already been born. Then someone saw the cartridge was being loaded so lite that much of the cartridge space was being wasted. So they made a shorter round that could function in 9mm frames.
The gun manufacturer$ loved the idea becau$e in$tead of having to make new frame$ for the longer 10mm $et to dominate the market they could just use existing 9mm frame$$$ and direct the market in that direction.
The .40$&W was born.


So the reason the 10mm auto fell from power was a combination of poor factors that shouldn't have been.
Had the delta elites came with the proper recoil spring from the state the FBI lite would likely have never been created, and the .40S&W never created based on that weak loading.

Same thing that that's wrong with many great cartridges - market forces.

10mm is good at everything, except being cheap.


I like 10mm. I have one, and I want more.

It hurts my wimpy little wrists

10mm's are GREAT!

I have 3 610's no dash number. 2 6.5 inch barrels with fluted cylinders and a 5 inch safe queen. Also a Dan Wesson Pointman 7, and a 1086. I LOVE my 10mm.