Pocket 9 Recommendation.Size, Reliable, Reasonable

Status
Not open for further replies.
Out of my 3" Kel Tec P11, a +P 115 grain hornady XTP/6.4 grain unique is pushing 1263 fps/410 ft lbs. That shades a 2.3" Ruger SP101 shooting 125 grain Sierras with 18 grains of 2400 which only chronographed 380 something ft lbs. Heavier bullets do better in .357.

The 9 uses fast powders compared to a .357 and it's pushing 35K CUP which is magnum pressures. There is NO WAY a .38O can put up those kinds of numbers. If you doubt me, check Buffalo Bore's website for 9x19+P. Some (the Kel Tec is one) 9s are rated for limited use +P. I've burned probably 300 rounds of it over the 15 years I've had the KT and it's still going fine, 11,000+ total rounds fired rough estimate over that time. Actually, Rohrbaugh is the only small 9 I KNOW isn't rated for +P. I'll admit, I haven't looked at the Kahrs for +P or such.
 
MCGunner, are those handload numbers or factory loads? If factory, what one? Those are some great numbers.

Kahrs are rated to +P but not +P+
 
Only in the one or two pocket 9's rated for +P. Otherwise, you're shooting standard 9mm at about 900 fps, and .380's at slightly higher velocities. I don't see much (if any) advantage.
Click to expand...

The advantage, as Kokapelli correctly stated, is in the weight of the bullet. The powder load also plays a big factor, and it's not all wasted on a short barrel. Muzzle velocity is a completely meaningless measurement when comparing projectiles of different weights (or different types of cartridges). Otherwise, a hyper velocity .22 round would be far more damaging than a .45ACP, which we all know is not the case.

A more informative measure for such comparisons is muzzle energy, which factors in the bullet weight. If you go to that Ballisticsbytheinch.com website that you posted, there is a link there to see a spreadsheet of the results converted to muzzle energy. For .380 Auto being fired from a 3" barrel, the most powerful cartridge tested has a ME of 205. He didn't specify what units he's reporting (it doesn't matter for comparative purposes), but I assume it's ft-lbf.

Looking at 9mm Luger from the same 3" barrel, the most powerful cartridge tested (a +P cartridge) has a ME of 395 (93% more energy than the best .380). The most powerful standard-pressure 9mm Luger cartridge tested had a ME of 376 (83% more energy than the best .380).

Even at a 2" barrel length, there's a 92% increase in ME going from .380 Auto to 9mm Luger.

There's no question that 9mm is much more powerful than .380, no matter what the barrel length is. Whether .380 is sufficient is an entirely different argument.
 
There's no question that 9mm is much more powerful than .380, no matter what the barrel length is. Whether .380 is sufficient is an entirely different argument.
Click to expand...

You're only quoting the extreme - a 9mm +P. I agree that a +P 9mm will come out ahead of the .380 (+P or not), but again, very few pocket 9's are rated for +P. Most small .380's are rated for +P.

I just don't think there's much (if any) advantage in most pocket 9's when measured against the .380's. The disadvantage might be increased muzzle flash and recoil, resulting in slower follow up shots.

I just think people should take that into account when deciding. Make sure your pocket 9 is rated for +P if you are going that route.
 
KodiakBeer said:
You're only quoting the extreme - a 9mm +P. I agree that a +P 9mm will come out ahead of the .380 (+P or not), but again, very few pocket 9's are rated for +P. Most small .380's are rated for +P.

I just don't think there's much (if any) advantage in most pocket 9's when measured against the .380's. The disadvantage might be increased muzzle flash and recoil, resulting in slower follow up shots.

I just think people should take that into account when deciding. Make sure your pocket 9 is rated for +P if you are going that route.
Click to expand...
Your ignoring the facts! This is from the Goldenloki gelatin test.

Just comparing the standard pressure Hornady Critical Defense rounds in 9mm and 380.

The Hornady Critical Defense 9mm 115gr round fired from a P11 with a 3.1" barrel clocks 1041fps

the Hornady Critical Defense 380 90gr round fired from a P3AT clocked 874fps

The 9mm is significantly heavier and faster than the 380.

The 380 round may be adequate, but based on the facts you can't say there is very little difference between the two rounds from short barrels.
 
You're only quoting the extreme - a 9mm +P. I agree that a +P 9mm will come out ahead of the .380 (+P or not), but again, very few pocket 9's are rated for +P. Most small .380's are rated for +P.
Click to expand...

Actually no, I wasn't. That was just one example out of three that I posted. If you go back and read my last post, you'll note that I said:

The most powerful standard-pressure 9mm Luger cartridge tested had a ME of 376 (83% more energy than the best .380).
Click to expand...

Also, when I made this comment:

Even at a 2" barrel length, there's a 92% increase in ME going from .380 Auto to 9mm Luger.
Click to expand...

...that was referring to standard pressure loads. Interestingly, in that study, the best +P cartridge produced nearly identical muzzle energy to the the best standard-pressure cartridge in 2" barrels, for an identical bullet weight of 115gr (328 vs. 327, respectively). That tells me that +P cartridges don't necessarily have any advantage over standard-pressure loads in short-barreled 9mm's, but 9mm Luger indisputably has a big advantage over .380, even in very short barrels.
 
Last edited:
Just to avoid any confusion, here are the actual numbers from the spreadsheet that is downloadable at ballisticsbytheinch.com, for a 2" barrel:

.380 Auto:
Cor Bon 90gr JHP: ME=171

9mm Luger:
Cor Bon 115gr JHP +P: ME=328
Cor Bon 115gr DPX: ME=327

327/171 = 91.2% increase in energy over .380 (I mistakenly rounded to 92% in my earlier post, but close enough).

Again, let's not get hung up on velocity. Velocity is only part of the equation, and it's meaningless to compare velocities between bullets of very different weights.
 
LC9 or PPS

the Ruger LC9 (seems a bit large, and all of that California crap on it, but good price), the SIG P290 (too new?) and the Walther PPS, (Kind of looks a bit strange, but maybe the answer?).
Click to expand...

If you think the LC9 is a tad too large for pocket carry, you have already eliminated the PPS; it's slightly larger.
I feel your pain as pocket carry is my preferred method also. Mouseguns.com has a lot of good information.
 
My primary CCW is a Glock 19.

I chose the Kahr PM-9 as a secondary CCW because it has the same exact manual of arms as my Glock 19. All my manipulation skills carry directly over from the Glock 19 to the PM-9.
 
MCGunner, are those handload numbers or factory loads? If factory, what one? Those are some great numbers.

Kahrs are rated to +P but not +P+
Click to expand...

It's a +P handload from the Speer number 11 manual I've loaded for years. Try Corbon 115 JHP, advertizing is in this range of performance. Note that my handload clocks 1340 fps out of a 4.5" Ruger P85.

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Cor-Bon.htm

9mm Luger

As most of you know, I am not a great fan of the 9mm Luger caliber. But with some loadings the performance of the caliber is greatly increased. Ball loadings and low velocity jacketed hollowpoint bullets simply do not do the business. Cor Bon's most famous loading is the 115 grain 9mm +P. At a time when most 115 grain Jacketed Hollow Point factory loads reached 1150 to 1200 fps, the Cob Bon +P reached 1350 fps. For some time I had loaded the Sierra JHP over a stiff charge of Herco powder for the same results. The Cor Bon load made a tremendous handload available to the public with factory quality control. This is a good loading that has suffered some controversy over the balance of expansion and penetration. It is true that the Cor Bon load and also the police-only +P+ loadings demonstrate less penetration and what some of us would call the ideal range. But the loading has proven effective and in some calibers a compromise is necessary. As for velocity, the following table gives the results I have obtained in my personal handguns.
FM High Power 1403 fps
Beretta 92 1370 fps
SIG P 226 1345 fps
FM Detective 1289 fps

In my experience Cor Bon meets or exceeds their own advertisements in four inch barrel or longer handguns.

There is also a 90 grain JHP at about 1500 fps that may find appeal with those who wish to limit penetration. This is at best a specialty load but one that shows good accuracy and a clean powder burn. For me, the big news from Cor Bon is the DPX load. This is a 115 grain load using the Barnes X bullet. This is a solid copper bullet with a long bearing surface for accuracy. The bullet's nose expands in a petal-like formation when the bullet is fire into ballistic gelatin. The body of the bullet remains solid, and the long shank gives good penetration. This is an excellent all around choice in 9mm for police work or personal defense. Many with extensive wound ballistics research experience are enthusiastic concerning this cartridge. Velocity is 1240 fps.
Click to expand...
 
Boberg

New to market. Small(roughly LCP sized), powerful(9mm 3.35" barrel) expensive($950) and untested in the real world.
They look REALLY good!
 

Attachments

  • Boberg.jpg
    Boberg.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 34
For most the p-11 is going to be to thick for pocket BUT the weight and function is fine, I carried a pf-9 trouble free for 2 1/2 years and several thousand rounds. Sold it only after getting a use kahr cw9 for a great price. Liked it so much I bought a kahr cm9 for everday pocket carry. The cm9 and cw9 both carry 124gr +P ammo now. Comfortable to shoot and way more controlable than ether keltec. Most +P+ ammo show no benifit when shot out of the short 3" or 3 1/2" barrels over +P. Get 4' and longer and the +P+ shines. Mine will cylcle the +P+ I tried buy did not chrony will and recoil was higher.
 
Last edited:
I have carried this PF9 for several years in this Galco pocket holster. It is easily hidden in any pants or shorts that have a standard pocket. It is accurate and never failed to function perfectly. I previously carried it's big brother the P11.
 
The P11 ain't all that thick. I carry mine just fine in a front Jeans or Docker's pocket in a number 4 Blackhawk pocket holster. The trigger is longer and heavier than the PF9, but neither is all that hard to shoot IMHO. Of course, you need to know HOW to shoot DA and don't be afraid to practice to improve. Quitters apply to Glock for a G26 and live with the extra size and weight. :D Personally, though, I don't like the idea of pocket carry with a "safe action" trigger especially in a typical soft pocket holster. Might could carry one, but I'd do it condition 3.
 
I LOVE my 709.

I'm really intrigued by the Boberg XR9-S, Its a tad out of my price range though.
made only a few miles from my house though!
 
Last edited:
I've been looking at the CM9 and the PF9. The LC9 has way too much ridiculous interaction for me. To add to the confutation Beretta is about to come out with their Nano which seems to be most likely sized and priced somewhere in between the CM9 and the PF9.

I've been reading around the forums and it seems that the CM9's are a hit-or-miss with their reliability and the PF9's seem to get a little better review, and with that said I'm sure there will be a bit of a brouhaha to follow my post.

I hope the Nano hits the street soon because I don't want to wait too much longer.
 
MCgunner:

If you don't think the P11 is thick, compare it to the Ruger LC9 sometime. :D

I had a P11 several years ago and it was always reliable, and more than worth the price of admission, but...

Pulling the slide back on that sucker to chamber around was like pulling a stick wrapped in sandpaper against another stick also wrapped in sandpaper.

For me also I found I could shoot the P11 pretty accurately at 7 yards or less, but after that I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, from the inside. I can do much better with the LC9..

I think the Ruger LC9 is pretty hard to beat in a sub-compact 9MM pistol IF you can accept the limitations of a single stack. (I can).

No offense, just making conversation.

Best Wishes,

Jesse
 
Nano

I hope the Nano hits the street soon because I don't want to wait too much longer.
Click to expand...
Gander Mountain has them listed as out of stock for $429.
I laid my LCP on top of the cover photo of one on G&A mag....It still may be a little big for pocket carry, even though it's smaller than the LC9.
 
There is not doubt that the 9mm Luger is a much more capable round than the 380 even out of a short barrel...faster and with higher bullet weight.

Another advantage is the average lower cost of ammo for the 9mm Luger vs the 380 and the wider range of ammo choices at the big box retailers.

I bought my P11 as a pocket carry and now it is my main carry....I do not even feel it anymore in my pants pocket (I use an Uncle Mike's pocket holster)
 
LCPor9mm

depends on your pockets ... in some of my shorts and cargo pants I carry a G30 in them thar pockets * now I know without a doubt * that the Nano is going to be a heck of a lot smaller than that
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
Smallest 9mm?
2
Replies
38
Views
6K
richardKatts
R
J
  • Locked
Looking for something smaller than a Glock 19 for EDC
Replies
21
Views
1K
possum
P
F
  • Locked
Kahr PM9 or Kel-Tec PF-9?
Replies
12
Views
2K
45crittergitter
4
K
  • Locked
Sig P290 experience
Replies
15
Views
1K
TennJed
T
M
  • Locked
Small 9/40 Pistols - Why don't more manufacturers create them?
Replies
24
Views
1K
6x6pinz
6
Back
Top