help deciding on a new long range "tack driver"

BunnMan said:

I'm heading out to Bass Pro later today to fondle a few rifles. The .338 Lapua is probably too exotic for my purposes. I think the smart move for me is probably another .308. I understand barrel swaps aren't too bad on the Savages? If so then maybe I could start with a .308 then pick up another barrel if I want something hotter...

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I'm again going to suggest buying a 300 Win Mag if you're looking for something that will reach out further than the .308 but will also not break the budget. For the most part all you will need is brass since you already have bullets, primers and probably the correct powder too.

I'm hearing the military is using 300 Win Mags now in place of the .308 in some theaters. I think that caliber will be the most cost effective since components and even the rifle itself won't cost more than something in .308 Win.

The military made the move to the .300WM as a mission based option some time ago in their sniper weapons. I wouldn't use that as any kind of deciding factor on anything though.

I have a .308. Shot it Friday, in fact. It shoots very well. It's a Savage action from a rifle that I bought at Wal-Mart for $397, an ER Shaw prefit 20" threaded barrel from Midway for $139, a Bennie Cooley muzzle brake from Brownell's for $97, all installed in a PDC Custom aluminum chassis (way more than I *needed* to spend on a stock). Performed all the work myself.



Shot at 100yds with handloads. I'm happy that I didn't yank one of them. Best group of the day at right around 0.67". The other 3 I shot at that range were right at 1".



Same load at 300yds. This group was 1.6" The wind was really starting to blow and swirl and the mirage was terrible. The other 2 groups I shot at 300 were right at 2.7".

It shoots great but I don't like shooting it that much simply because of the price of .30cal bullets worth shooting. I fired 35 rounds on Friday and while considerably cheaper than shooting factory ammo, it was still nearly $10 in components not counting brass. In contrast I can shoot 100 rounds of .223 or .243 for $20. Additionally, neither the .223 or .243 need a muzzle brake to be all day shootable.

The first of my 2 hunting rifles is a Savage .243 that my folks gave me for Christmas in college. It began life with iron sights and the original factory barrel was scary accurate with everything I ever fed it. Almost the point of being boring, in fact. Load development was really a matter of how much effort and components do I want to spend finding that fraction of an inch? I installed the .308 sporter barrel from the rifle discussed above for a bit and decided that I didn't want to deal with the additional recoil and expense of practicing with it and went back to .243 with another factory barrel that came off the action my long range .243 is built on. I haven't shot it with the new barrel yet. If it isn't a shooter, I still have the original barrel laying around. It isn't pretty, what with the holes where the irons used to be, but the results from it sure are. Why all the barrel swapping when I had a factory .308 and .243 in my hands? I'm left handed, my long range bench/bipod guns are right handed and my hunting rifles, like this one, are left-handed actions.

My second hunting rifle just arrived earlier this last week. After an exhaustive search for what I wanted, starting with Savage (they made the rifle I was looking for for 1-2 years but it isn't a current model and finding one for sale is rarer than hen's teeth) I ended up discovering that only Browning and Winchester currently chamber rifles in 7mmWSM and only Browning makes them with a left-handed action in several models of both the A-bolt and X-bolt. Mine is an X-bolt Hunter. I looked at the Medallion but I don't do "shiny" on hunting rifles. I'm still waiting on the scope bases and the scope, both of which have been on backorder since mid Feb.

Where am I going with this? I don't particularly like the .30 cal cartridges for long range work. The .308 in particular is underwhelming in what it offers and I have one that shoots great. The 6mm cartridges offer better ballistics for long range shooting; you have to step up to a .300 Win Mag shooting heavy bullets (with heavy recoil) to keep pace with a .243 shooting 105-107gn bullets with regard to bullet drop and wind drift. The 6.5mm offerings up the recoil slightly but bring more energy to the equation and the availability of higher BC bullets than the 6mm. The combination extends the hunting range a good bit. The 7mm's, especially the 7mm magnums, offer even more efficient bullets, flatter trajectories and lower wind drift than most anything, better energy retention than the .300 Win Mag and with a recoil level right around that of a .30-06.

I have a Savage Long Range Hunter in .300 Win Mag, that I love. With every load tried, it shoots sub 1" at 100 yards. Handloads shoot under 2" at 300 if I can. The rifle comes with a Karsten cheekpiece already installed and a muzzle brake that you can close when you need it to be quieter, like when you are hunting without ear protection. It also has the accu-stock feature that beds the action in a block of aluminum.

It does have a hinged floorplate, but they have never bothered me. For target shooting, I always load one at a time by hand anyway. I don't personally know anybody that uses a magazine on a bolt gun for targets, either. For hunting, I've never needed more than one shot from that gun, so the magazine is a moot point.

The reason I shoot savage rifles is because I can get an almost boringly accurate rifle out of the box and still be able to afford the top notch optics that really let the rifle shine. Don't forget, you still need good glass! I have rigs that the scope cost significantly more than the rifle itself.

article | Kinetic Research Group's Whiskey-3 Chassis for the Tikka T3

I have a .308 for hunting,
I could see having this in 6.5x284 Norma for long range target and varmint shooting.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12BENCHREST

BunnMan said:

Damn Helo, thanks again for a very comprehensive reply and the pics! Though you forgot a pic of that tight group .308 project that punched the holes . I wouldn't have guessed the 7mm would promote better retention than the .300 Win Mag, very interesting. If that's the case I'm curious to know why the military would favor the .300.

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The 7mm retains energy better, but the .300 starts off with more of it because in general it shoots heavier bullets. That extra energy comes at the cost of additional recoil. Using bullets of like sectional density the two reach basically the same muzzle velocity and the .300 has more energy out to over 1k but the difference is academic. Drop and wind drift is where the difference becomes apparent. The 7mm has 16" less drop and 8.5" less drift at 1k yds using middle weight hunting bullets in each caliber. Once you go to match bullets and up the weights, the 7mm starts to pull even farther ahead. I would ignore the choices of the military because they are too tainted by politics to be considered objective.

Though 7mm mag is a little smaller than my .30 call preferrence I'd consider it. I know it can be devasting on whitetails. Is it any more difficult to work up a good performing load for 7mm than for .308 or .300 Win Mag?

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The differences in terminal effects are trivial. I've never seen different categories of dead. It's a binary result, yes or no. The 7mm puts them in the "yes" column just as well as the .300. The difference in recoil and external ballistics all point in favor of the 7mm. It isn't a difficult cartridge to load for either.

I'm comfortable shooting my Win Model 100 308 all day with no muzzle brake, either of the 7mm or 300 would probably change that. I'm not opposed to a brake but prefer not to have one on a hunting rifle due to the NECESSITY of wearing ears with a brake. My little 14.5" AR with a welded on Sabre gill brake causes pain on the first round if I forget my ear plugs!! ...and thats only .223! Would it effect accuracy if I had a screw on brake that I removed for hunting?

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The recoil of the 7mm is similar to a 30-06. The .300 is about 33% greater. A brake would work. A removable brake *may* change the POI when removed. It's one of those things that you would have to verify when you take it off or put it on. Also the change in weight will affect the barrel harmonics and might affect group size or change the load that the rifle likes. Me, personally, I'd go the brake and digital hearing protection route. I'm trying to decide who to let do the work on my Browning right now and I already have a pair of the Walker Game Ears. I hear you about the noise. I have a .223 that is abusive with its muzzle brake. Oddly the .308 isn't as bad though I would hardly call it quiet. People flinch and shoot dirty looks when I shoot the AR, I just get the dirty looks with the .308. I take the end bench and warn everyone on the line every time but it always happens.

How bout a pic of that .308 helo?

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It has a different scope on it now. SWFA SS 5-20x50 instead of the Bushnell E4200 3-12x44.

It becomes a matter of the bullet, not the caliber, at that point. My dad went to a 7mm-08 from a .30-06 and couldn't be happier. He's killed every deer that he's shot with it and every one has been bang-flop, DRT. He couldn't say that about the .30-06. His bullet of choice has been the Win Supreme Ballistic Silvertip. I've shot that rifle and it is a far sight more pleasant to shoot than my lefty Savage was when it was a .308.

Several guys I work with shot oryx this year, one with a .308, one a .300WM and the last with a .300 RUM. All were DRT as well. The .300WM shot was inside 150yds, bloodshot the shoulder and literally blew the heart and lungs out the back. The .308 shot was taken @475yds simply because they couldn't get any closer and was a complete pass-through. A 7mm RM shooting a fairly light 139gn bullet has the same energy at 675yds that my friend's 180gn had at 475. The 7mm has the stuff as far out as you can reliably hit them. The .300RUM shot was at around 525yds and was one heck of a shot from one heck of a shooter.

2 weekends ago another friend shot a Barbary sheep with a 270WSM. Also a bang-flop once he finally hit it. He's not a very good shot. The 7mmMag is roughly in the same category as the 270WSM (with a 0.2mm advantage in bullet diameter and much heavier bullets available) and no one complains about it (or the .270 Win for that matter which is in a class lower) not delivering the goods.

FWIW, as soon as my current 300wm barrel is toast, I plan on relegating the WM to hunting only and will re-barrel the LR long action to something with less recoil (probably a 6.5 x something). I’ve dropped deer DRT w/ a .243 and had a large doe a couple of years ago run 50+ yds after a 190gr/300wn bullet displaced her heart (not advised, but a SMK will make a hole you can put your fist in). Sometimes they run and I have no idea why… As said by others, I wouldn’t look at the military to find out what’s ‘best’, I would look at what the long range competitors (like Zak S)are shooting.

From what I’ve seen, the Savage actions feel loose/cheap, but they perform well. The Rem actions feel a little better made, but I personally haven’t seen that mean better accuracy. IMHO, both Rem 700 and Savage 110 actions need a trip to the smith to get a smooth action and that doesn’t cost much. I would keep in mind the typical long range rifle is around 15+ lbs.

Good Luck!

I went with a savage action, 30 inch mcgowen barrel in 260rem, and xlr chassis. Topped with a sightron SIII 20 power tactical scope.

I have a 90's Browning A-bolt in 270, and whoever says that they're not accurate should come shoot mine (less than MOA out to 300 yards - as far as I've been able to shoot yet). However, my next gun will be a savage/stevens due to the price and the availability of aftermarket parts.

The Tikka is a very good gun as well. Some of my friends have them and they are well built and accurate. People just tend to go to the savage instead for the price and ability to upgrade. If you're going to leave the gun as is, the Tikka would be great.

Good luck.

I got the scope mounts in for my X-bolt 7WSM today and mounted a Bushnell E4200 2.5-10x40 that I had on another rifle on it as a temp until its Monarch comes in. It weighs almost nothing. Significantly lighter than my Savage .243. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the range some time this week to shoot it. If it shoots even half as good as it looks...

I predict that it will end up wearing a brake shortly as well. Fortunately there is a guy here in this little town that I currently live in that custom makes and mounts muzzle brakes. I've seen his work and heard nothing but rave reviews on their effectiveness. I need to get his contact info and drop him a line.

I was looking at a Tikka as well since they make a lot of lefty models and I've never heard a complaint about them. Every one that I've handled has seemed well made and they have a pretty good reputation with regard to accuracy. Unfortunately, they don't chamber 7mm WSM. I almost went with a .270 WSM but I really wanted the 7mm and one came available in the Browning.

Not yet. I've been sick in bed the last few days. I think he only takes walk-in work though.

338 Lapua is a great cartridge, but so expensive

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I've handled a few Rem 700s, not knocking it as it's a proven piece but the action doesn't feel the slickest to me. I reckon I'll check out a few savage models this weekend.... The Accu trigger is outstanding and it does absolutely drive tacks but again, it just doesn't have the solid feel when you work the safety and bolt. Hopefully the centerfire savages have a more solid feeling action.

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I know everyone has their opinions and favorites, but before you poo poo the Remington and Savage actions, I must say that Remington actions are some of the most consistent and smoothest actions on the market within a reasonable price range...and I have a friend at the local range who owns several Savages that shoot very well and have very nice actions.

I have a Remington 700 5r in .308 and on a good day (for me), the rifle is capable of 1 inch groups (3 rounds) at 300 yards.

I suspect the Savage rifles are just as capable, but I don't own one, so my opinion is second hand on those.

Concerning the 338 Lapua, they are around $2 and $3 per round to reload and more if you buy them commercially. It is a waste to shoot one at less than 500 yards and 1000 to 1500 yards is better.

I also agree with the comments on Browning. I have a Browning shotgun and .22LR that I have had since I was 16 (30 years ago) and a BLR that is a great deer gun, but not a tack driver. Brownings are great rifles, but not well known as target rifles.

Concerning the Remington 700 VTR, there is nothing wrong with it, but they tend to be very loud because of the muzzle brake, and the stock is not a target/match quality stock...it would not be my first choice.

Another option since you want a theaded barrel for a brake is the Rem 700 AAC/SD which comes with a threaded barrel from the factory. Several folks at our range have them and they shoot very well at 100 to 300 yards.

If you want to start cheap and build the rifle up, buy a Rem 700 SPS Varmint with heavy barrel and replace the SPS stock with a quality stock from Manners or HS Precision or another mfr. of your choice. Replace the trigger as well with a target-quality trigger from Timney or Jewel. Buy yourself a picatinny rail and QD rings from Larue Tactical...likely the best on the market. Recommend a 308 Win, but 223 is a good option out to 600 meters.

And everything everyone else said above is quite true.

Wow, 6 year old thread brought back from the dead.

Well the good choice would be a Savage Model 11 light weight hunter in 6.5 Creedmore. This is a nice long range cartridge and a very nice rifle. Savages trigger set up is also a big plus with this rifle. I think you will be very impressed with it.