How to tell if finish is original?

Unfortunately the only answer is experience. Look at lots of examples. Even then some very good people have been fooled.

Coloration, dished stampings, and rounded corners are definitive indications of a poor re-bluing job, but a high quality refinishing job done with the intention of matching the original finish can be difficult to detect. In my experience color case hardening seems to be harder to duplicate than bluing.

Read the front section of the Blue Book by Fjestad, it's a primer on how to grade a firearm.

Most symptoms of a refinish are due to ham-handed polishing using small diameter soft muslin buffs.
Professionals use LARGE, very HARD felt wheels, usually over 8 inches in diameter and "stacked" on the shaft to around 6 to 8 inches thick.
The thin, soft buffs "dig in" and round off edges and leave a sort of funnel shape around holes.
Since polishing is an art and a skill that takes a long time to really learn, occasional or part time polishers never learn or maintain the skills.
Result is an over-buffed gun.

Signs of a refinished blued gun:

Edges and corners that should be sharply defined rounded off.

Transition areas rounded off or uneven.
As example the "line" where the side flat of a 1911 slide transitions to the rounded top of the slide, or where the bright polish areas transition to the bead blasted areas on the top of a revolver frame.

Stampings washed out by a ham-handed polisher.

Holes dished out.

Ripples and waves in flats and along the barrel.

Off colors, especially reddish or purple colors.
These may appear worse in sunlight. This is a sign the bluing system was not controlled properly, something you often see part time bluers like local gunsmiths who "fire up" the tanks once or twice a month.

Pitting, scratches ,or other defects UNDER the bluing.

Bluing that's either shinier or duller than factory.

Bluing by S&W and Colt will be a blue-black.
Non-factory will often be black.

Parts that should be "in the white" that are blued.
Example, the sides of Colt revolver hammers or internal parts of a S&W.

Bluing salts bleed-out. T
his appears as a white powder around tight parts like barrels or sights. This is caused by failing to adequately "kill" the bluing process completely. The still active salts will bleed out of tight joints. You VERY seldom see this on a quality factory gun.
You can stop it by applying oil and brushing off the residue, but it's often a sign of poor quality workmanship.

A quality re-blue can be hard to determine. A few things to look for are rounded corners instead of sharp edges, washed out roll marks, dished screw holes, and a less than perfect fit of the side plate. A dead giveaway with Smith and Wesson nickle revolvers, if the hammer, trigger, and ejector star are nickle plated the revolver has been refinished. As Smith and Wesson did not nickle plate these parts.

Please look at this and consider what dfarriswheel has taught;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9277031#post9277031

Anyone familiar with the finish that Smith and Wessson gave these revolvers originally will tell in an instant that the high polish refinish is not original.

However all of the other "tell tales" are impeccably executed and this is the work of a highly skilled craftsman. I am hoping someone will post an example that exhibits all of the "flaws"

P.S. Giving this a second look perhaps the pictures are not large or high definition enough to really accomplish the task. I do believe we should provide the best "pro" and "con" examples as a learning opportunity. Surely we can do that?

Can you post examples of;

1. Dished screws
2. Poorly executed roll marks and stampings
3. Detail errors, hammers and triggers etc. in the wrong finish
4. Wavy flanks and flats with poorly over-covered pits and the like
5. Bad blueing color

etc., etc.,

and the converse, really well done jobs (factory refinish, etc.)?

To help jumpstart,

I believe this is a refinish. Tell your reasons why you agree or disagree.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=387145393

I own this revolver, even though it is a relatively good refinish, it is immediately evident that it is because the finish of the trigger should not be nickel. An example of detail.

It could just be the pictures, but the bluing looks cloudy and matte. It also doesn't look consistent. For it to be that dull, you would expect more bare spots.

I own this revolver, even though it is a relatively good refinish, it is immediately evident that it is because the finish of the trigger should not be nickel. An example of detail.

Click to expand...

Also your Safety Hammerless S&W should have a blued trigger guard and barrel latch on an otherwise nickel plated revolver. Triggers as you noted should be color case hardened.

As usual the Old Fuff is absolutely correct.

Again, could be the quality of the photography but the Police Positive left side barrel roll-mark in pic. 2 has the look of being overstruck. But in this case the blued trigger is actually correct as originally produced. These revolvers were not however "high polished" (mirror shiny) from the factory.

It's the Colt SA collectors who really know the score about this. Some of those things run $30,000 if they are "90% original finish", but if they are "70%", the price is $10,000! So you can bet that there's incentive to commit fraud, and that those collectors pay more attention.

As a counter to the Police Positive, here is an Official Police with a proper finish. This looks like original finish to me;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=386719447

Here is an example of a poor refinish.

#1 the tell is the gun is a Victory model M&P and should have a matte finish and a lanyard ring.

#2 the hammer and trigger sides have been polished and show no case colors

#3 if I would have had better lighting you would see the color of the cylinder is purple.

#4 all the edges are soft, especially where the side plate seam is and nomenclature is stamped.

But this old junker is very valuable to me because my father carried it in Korea, too bad it got one of those Earl Shibe $10 refinish jobs in the 50s.








This a Factory refinish done in the early 70s. The lines around the nomenclature are just a bit soft. And i belive it to be over polished.

Howdy

As with all things, there are different degrees of refinish. Some stand out like a sore thumb, some need to be examined very closely.

Here is a sore thumb. A 44 Hand Ejector 3rd Model made in 1929. I honestly do not know if it left the factory blued or nickel plated as I have not bothered to letter it. But the first thing that jumps out at me is how the edge around the side plate has been rounded over. This seam should be almost invisible. The edge of the side plate was rounded over by an over zealous polisher. The second thing that jumps out is the hammer and trigger have been nickel plated, and as we have already stated, S&W never nickel plated these parts, they were left with a Case Hardened finish.






Not a nickel plated gun, but the joint around the side plate on this Stainless Model 624 is as it should be, almost invisible.







Another example of over polish on this Brazilian Contract 1917. The Brazilian shield has been almost completely polished away. Only the outline of the right side remains, and the '1937' has been partially polished away too.

In looking for refinish jobs, it helps to know a little bit about the history of the guns. I have seen Brazilian Contract 1917s that look so beat up, they were probably all thrown into a box without any protection at all when they were shipped back to this country. So it is not unusual to see these guns that have been overpolished. I have another one that is full of dings and scratches from poor treatment, but it was not refinished.





This 32-20 Hand Ejector is a little bit out of focus, but the finish is almost as nice as when it left the factory in 1917. The side plate seam is crisp. The S&W shield is crisp. And there is no dishing around the screw holes. And yes, there is a ring around the cylinder, that is to be expected if the gun did not spend its life in somebody's sock drawer.




Here is the other side of the 32-20 HE. Notice the hammer pivot stud under the cylinder release latch. On newer Smiths, that stud is polished flush with the frame and is almost invisible. But on the older guns the end of the stud was subflush to the side of the frame. The stud is slightly convex in shape. More importantly, look at the edges of the hole. This one is as it should be, the edge of the hole is ever so slightly broken, but there is no dishing around the hole. Also, notice the cylinder retaining stud near the corner of the cylinder. Before the new MIM guns, this stud was pressed into the frame from the inside. It started out round, then the shape was modified by milling. Notice there is a tiny amount of wear around the edge of the part, with bare steel showing through the blue. That is exactly how a slightly worn retaining stud should look. Check to be sure that its edges are crisp. If it is rounded over, it has been over polished and refinished.




Here are some really old guns, a pair of Double Action 44s, the blue one is from 1881 and the nickel one is from about 1895 I think. The blued gun has clearly been refinished. The edge of the side plate stands out like a sore thumb, the trigger and hammer have been blued, and if you look carefully there is a slight bit of dishing around the barrel pivot screw hole.

Compare that with how invisible the side plate edge is on the nickeled gun the hammer and trigger are Case Hardened, the trigger guard is blued, and the screw holes are crisp with no dishing.





Not a revolver, but here is a refinished Browning Hi-Power. This one was shipped to Argentina and used by the Buenos Aires police. It was refinished after it was shipped back here. Notice how the Serial Numbers on the frame and slide have been partially polished away, the 5 and 2 are doing a disappearing act. Always run your finger over all markings stamped onto a gun. When first stamped, the markings will raise up a tiny bit of metal around the marking. With time, the raised portion may wear away. If so, the bits that wore away should show unfinished steel. If the markings have no raised edges, but do not show wear, suspect a refinish job. The digits on this Hi-Power show blue completely surrounding the partially polished away digits. Clearly a refinish.




This overpolished shield on the top of the Hi-Power shouts out refinish.





Refinishing a gun is not necessarily a bad thing. If you are a collector and are only interested in highly collectable firearms, then a refinish job will prevent you from buying the gun. But for those of us who are 'acquirers' and like to shoot what we acquire, a refinish job will often make a firearm affordable, as long as we know it has been refinished and nobody is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. I have no problem buying a refinished firearm, as long as both the seller and myself know it has been refinished, and the price reflects the fact that it has been refinished.

And sometimes, even with the most expert hands, it is impossible to refinish a firearm perfectly.

I stumbled upon this S&W New Model Number Three in a local shop a few years ago. It was manufactured in 1882. It was refinished at the S&W factory in 1965. I got a factory letter with the gun that stated these facts. The seam around the side plate is almost invisible. The hammer and trigger have beautiful Case Hardening, probably refreshed when the gun was refinished, or perhaps they were new parts out of a parts bin. But if you look carefully there is a little bit of dishing around the screw holes, particularly the screw in the barrel extension above the cylinder. Sometimes even the factory polishers, who had been doing this every day for years, got a little bit too aggressive.





Always look for factory refinishing marks. The star under the grips of this gun is Smith's shorthand for a gun that was serviced at the factory, and the digits 365 mean that the work was done in March of 1965.

Excellent presentation as usual Driftwood.

Wow, that's worth a sticky. Driftwood, thanks for the excellent post.

This question may not belong here, but how do you decide when to refinish? I have several firearms that are in poor enough condition, finish-wise, that I would like to consider re-bluing, but I don't know if they're better off being left as is. Any suggestions?

I have a K-22 that was reblued by S&W and it would take a pretty experienced eye to tell. The real tip off is the star marking, but otherwise, it looks near new.

Just FWIW, S&W polishes their revolver frames using hard wheels shaped to the frame. For example, one wheel is shaped to match the bottom of the frame from ahead of the trigger guard around the guard and down to the bottom front of the grip. That whole area was polished in one pass on that wheel.

The old blue was Carbonia blue, which was done in a gas furnace as part of the heat treatment process. It could not be redone, so when S&W reblued a gun they used a regular caustic blue, but their polishing was the same and, as I said above, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference.

One tip if you are refinishing an S&W or Colt DA. After you remove the internal parts, re-install the sideplate and polish it down with the frame as the factory did. It will look a lot better.

Here is a pic of two S&W's I polished; they show the sideplate seam.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59691&d=1182391291

Jim

Thanks Driftwood, putting pictures and descriptions really helps us nubes. The only question I have is the "dishing". I assume that the holes are not flush, like the edges are rounded?

Click to expand...

Howdy Again

Here is a photo of dished holes. All four are dished to some extent, but the worst offender is the one up near the hammer. Polishing a gun for refinish requires a great deal of skill and a great deal of practice. I certainly do not have the skill myself, but I can usually spot an overaggressive polishing job. Notice that the edge of the side plate also shows rounding over. Jim K is correct, these parts were assembled at the factory and polished as one piece, rather than the side plate being polished by itself. Polishing the side plate by itself is most of the reason for the rounding over at its edges. Also, notice the striations on the side plate. Those are not an illusion, those are polishing marks left on the steel before it was reblued. They should not be there. Also, notice how the screw holes are dished in the same direction as the polishing marks.





Let's not forget the reasons for refinishing a gun. Often times an old gun is rusty and pitted. The rust polishes right off, but sometimes to remove the pitting, a lot of metal has to be removed. That is where the over polishing can come in, if someone is in a hurry to remove a lot of metal and bring the steel down to a smooth surface. That is why markings may become indistinct, because the pitting was deep enough that a lot of metal had to be removed around the markings.

It is a judgement call as to whether or not to refinish a gun. You have to know something about the gun, and how collectable it is. It is pretty well granted that a refinish will always devalue a gun. If it is a rare and very collectable piece, a refinish will definitely cut the value. If it is a common piece, and is in really miserable condition, it may be worth a refinish. However, do not expect to recoup the cost of the refinish. Just like a used car, no matter how much work you put into it, you may not be able to recover all the cost of a refinish. Be sure the refinisher you go to understands the basics about over polishing, and not plating parts that were not meant to be plated.

As I said before, refinish is not necessarily a bad thing. The guy who owns the gun takes the hit on the value. I was happy to buy this refinished Triple Lock, the refinish made it affordable, I would not have been able to afford it otherwise. Notice the gun came with its original grips, which are pencil numbered to the gun. Notice how beautiful the Case Hardening is on the hammer and trigger. Overall, the gun looks terrific, this photo shows the worst part of it. I was happy to buy it, refinish and all.

Judging by the grips, I would almost bet that that gun didn't need refinishing at all; probably it just had a little holster wear. Sad.

To add one point about refinished guns. Look at the grips. You don't see new or like new guns with grips that have the checkering worn off or are worn, scraped or with the finish gone. A new gun might have broken or chipped grips, but not worn ones. But people who do rebluing rarely also refinish grips. Too good grips also arouse suspicion, at least where repros are available, so check for plastic repros on one or both grips.

Jim

Judging by the grips, I would almost bet that that gun didn't need refinishing at all; probably it just had a little holster wear. Sad.

Click to expand...

This is one of those glass half empty/half full things. You can look at it that way if you want.

As I said earlier, I don't mind buying a refinished gun as long as it is clear to both parties that it has been refinished. The way I look at it, because the gun was refinished, I was able to afford it. Somebody else took the hit in value. Have you seen what Triple Locks are going for these days? The last one I bid on ended up going for $7500!

Was there only holster wear? Who is to say? Not that I mind some honest holster wear. And the bonus is the grips are almost like new. Just a tiny chip at the bottom of one. And they are the original grips, they have the SN pencil lettered inside.

I bought a beautiful, refinished Winchester Model 1892 a bunch of years ago for $800. Made in 1894. You can't buy a replica for that today. Probably couldn't have touched it if it had been in original condition. Shoots beautifully. I'm happy to let somebody else take the hit in value so I can buy a nice vintage gun at an affordable price.