Pistol grip on magazine of a pistol?

That image does not have a vertical forward grip attached. The law does not prohibit using the mag well as a grip.

That's perfectly legal. You're correct that you can't put a vertical foregrip on a pistol, but you can use the pistol however you want. There's no vertical foregrip in that picture, she's just holding the magazine well. And a mag well is not a vertical foregrip; it doesn't matter if the shooter uses the mag well as a grip, it's still not actually designed as a grip.

This is straight from the BATFE:
"ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are 'making' a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch."

Notice that the key word here is "designed". The BATFE can't control HOW you shoot the gun, they can only control how it's actually designed. And the Kel-Tec in that picture doesn't have a vertical foregrip, so it's completely legal.

It works the same way with the SIG SB-15 "arm brace" that's designed for AR and AK pistols: It's officially designed for one-handed use by strapping the gun to your forearm. It actually sucks if you use it that way (it's much better if you just shoulder it like a normal stock), but the BATFE has officially determined that the SB-15 is an arm brace designed for one-handed use, so it doesn't matter how you decide to actually shoot the gun.

If it was illegal to hold the mag well on a pistol, then it would be illegal to use ANY kind of two-handed grip on a pistol: Keep in mind that the official BATFE definition of a pistol is a firearm that's "designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand". But most people use two-handed grips when shooting pistols and it's perfectly legal, and that's because the BATFE can't control how you shoot a gun.

I frequently shot my H&K USP pistol by wrapping my off hand around the triggerguard or shot my Mauser C96 by wrapping my off hand around the magazine box. It is common today in aimed single shot fire to use both hands on a pistol (or a revolver) for support.

I suspect what made the seperate vertical foregrip for a handgun a no-no with ATF was its association with controlling full auto fire in machine pistols (eg Beretta 93R) more than the fig leaf definition that a Title I handgun is designed to fired by one hand.

ADDED: Beretta machine pistol Model 93R

linked from Russia Modern Guns website

Paddy said:

I thought I had heard somewhere that even holding a mag was considered a vertical grip.

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You probably did hear that; it's a very common misconception that the BATFE can control HOW you shoot your gun. Lots of people in the gun world don't have any idea what they're talking about, but they sure like to pretend they do. Heck, there are still people claiming that it's illegal to shoulder the SIG SB-15 arm brace, but they're completely wrong.

I'm glad you came here to ask your question instead of just trusting what some of those people tell you. This site has lots of very good information and people here usually know what they're talking about.

Design vs. use is pretty clear to me but I've given up on understanding why an angled foregrip or magwell grip is OK:

Younger me would have chafed at playing the game. Older me loves playing the game in ways that express the same sentiment. SB-15 and the new over >26"short barrel PGO shotguns make me smile. Pile up the absurdities!

Mike

Arizona_Mike said:

I've given up on understanding why an angled foregrip or magwell grip is OK

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Well, the short answer is that they're OK because the BATFE says they're OK. But it actually does make sense if you use their logic: They prohibit vertical foregrips, but an angled foregrip isn't vertical, it's angled; so it's OK. And a mag well grip isn't separate from the mag well, so it's not a vertical foregrip either and it's OK also.

You need to completely ignore the fact that both an angled foregrip and a mag well grip serve the same function as a vertical grip, because then you'd be using common sense. Remember, the NFA isn't about common sense; it's about regulating specific firearms that our government thinks are especially dangerous. And the problem with those kinds of regulations is that many guns don't fit neatly into any single category, so you need to start regulating cosmetic features in order to maintain those regulations. Heck, just look at the Assault Weapons Ban; that's the same kind of thing, just taken to a new and even more stupid level.

Preaching to the choir my brother

When you have to deal with people who have the power to call a tomato a vegetable, rhubarb a fruit, thighs genitals, and dinosaur bones Native American artifacts, "because they say so" is the only answer that counts.
If you make anything gun-related for sale, you pretty much have to operate on a "Mother, may I?" basis. Shocking there is any innovation at all.

Mike

Carl N. Brown .....I suspect what made the seperate vertical foregrip for a handgun a no-no with ATF was its association with controlling full auto fire in machine pistols (eg Beretta 93R) more than the fig leaf definition that a Title I handgun is designed to fired by one hand.

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And in 1934 it was directly related to John Dillenger:

http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/web/dillinger.htm

A while back you could purchase a rubber sleeve that fit onto AK magazines, basically enhancing their "gripability." I worked with the guy who invented it, and he spent considerable time dealing with the ATF, on whether these would be considered a vertical foregrip. Final answer was "No" after he spent about 2 hours arguing on the phone that the rubber sleeve attached to the magazine not the magwell.

-Jenrick

What about this? Grip that attatches to mag well...

Derp... the atf letter above is for that grip.... nevermind

Legality aside, it may not be good for the magazine itself. I've seen a few ruined by pressure being put on the mag on an AR. You also have the possibility of injuring yourself if you have a OOBD. I can provide pictures to both if needed.

Sometimes for a newer shooter it's harder not to place your hand there if you have shorter arms. Your body wants to naturally go to where it's comfortable. Some would also argue the odds of a OOBD. That's a personal choice. Just know before hand and use your best judgement, again where ergonomics are concerned and legality aside.

it may not be good for the magazine itself. I've seen a few ruined by pressure being put on the mag on an AR.

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Something was wrong with the gun or the mag was defective, you should be able to use a 30 round magazine as a "mono-pod" when shooting prone. If you can't get things fixed!

Dillenger's gun was full auto anyway and merely has an angled foregrip

Mike

Dillenger's gun was full auto anyway and merely has an angled foregrip

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Didn't they also use BAR machine guns?
Didn't see one in the photo.

I'm not sure. I don't thing Dillenger was known for using a BAR. He seemed to like small and light.

Mike

PS. Just this year (2014) the FBI returned one of Dillinger's stolen Thompsons to it's lawful owner (they had demilled it and were using it as a trophy). Apparently they made trophies of most of the guns and made no attempt to return stolen property.

I don't thing Dillenger was known for using a BAR.

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http://www.google.com/imgres?imgref...eJR3Ge8WDcM:&docid=tP91HFem05NE1M&h=725&w=648

I'm not a student of criminals, but its a rather famous photo.

Edit:
Doh! Got my crooks confused, its Clyde of Bonnie and Clyde, but Dillinger and his gang were reported to use BARs as well:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/wp-content/uploads/Webcontent/pdf/2009-7/200971484228-dillinger.pdf

Wally,

I looked a bit more into it since last night. I can't find any empirical data to support or disprove it can damage magazines. Honestly I'd like something that confirms either way.

I did however find videos and pictures of people with injuries to their fingers, hands, wrists and arms from holding the magazine during a OOBD, case separation and over charged round. Holding a bit more forward will help reduce the chance of injury during a failure.

The ATF says vertical grips are illegal on handguns. Angled grips are OK but they don't say how many degrees off vertical they have to be. But would a regular vertical grip mounted on the side of a quad rail be legal? After all it would now be horizontal.

I haven't seen this in writing, but I would guess the difference isn't in angle but whether you can wrap your hand around it like a pistol grip.

People shooting AK-47s and using the magazine as a foregrip always annoyed me. Then I came across several pictures of Mikhail Kalashnikov shooting one that way.

The sainted MTK may have approved it... but it's still ne kulturny as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't see the answer regarding the aftermarket "grip" that goes on the magwell (I know gripping the plain magwell is fine and VFG is no go) but the grips that slide over the magwell are those ok on a pistol?

I never picked one up because they get in the way of the coupled mags not that I use couplers lol.