Specific reasons some people keep handguns in cars?

Wllie Sutton said:

Anyone putting a vehicle in "park" at a stoplight is dumb enough that they ought to lose the fight to start with, just to end their gene pool from being passed on to other unfortunates.

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In the force on force class I described above, the pedestrian wasn't always a bad guy, that was part of the drill, we can't assume everyone within 15 feet of us is a bad guy. When some of the students arrived at the stop sign the pedestrian simply walked past them as would be the case 99.9% of the time in our daily lives. When I approached the stop sign the bad guy, approaching from my left, turned out to be a car jacker and drew his weapon from inside a jacket pocket where he already had his hand on it and was only about 7 feet away from me at a 45 degree angle. He clearly had the superior advantage. He instructed me to put the truck in park and get out as a car jacker in real life would do. So following his directions I started moving the gear selector towards Park but stopped at Reverse, ducked and lit up the tires in reverse. We were not told to drive up to the stop sign and put our vehicle in park. no one does that in real life. Considering this was a mock class it was unacceptable to drive over the bad guy. That part disappointed a few students.

The point of the drill was to reinforce just how hard it is to defend from inside a vehicle. In most parts of America you can't drive around with your gun drawn holding it in your lap, you can't draw your gun every time someone you think might be up to no good gets within 15 feet of you out in public and you won't always have the option of going backwards as I chose to do and depending on traffic and other bystanders you might not have any option at all besides surrendering the vehicle and hoping that is all the bad guy has in mind.

Added - In South Carolina, where this drill was given, you cannot drive around with a pistol tucked under your leg. As a CWP holder it must be concealed on your body or in an open or closed container in the passenger compartment as a none permit holder it must be in a close container with a latch such as the glove compartment or center console.

"He instructed me to put the truck in park and get out as a car jacker in real life would do."

So you did what you were told by the goblin? You'll die if you stick to that mindset in the real world. What you were trained to do is to cooperate with your assassin.

The correct response is ABSOLUTELY to *leave*, using the space that you've already wisely left yourself, and absolutely not to follow his instructions. If you've not left so space to leave, use your vehicle to move the obstructing vehicle out of the way, or die because you were in condition white to start off with. There are a few other tactics available as well: Driving up to another car so closely that the doors can't be opened, crushing the goblin against another car sideways, and simply destroying your own cars ability to move by ramming a telephone pole. These are all taught in advanced driving courses and naturally the technique selected needs to be appropriate to the situation. Your vehicle is your primary weapon though. Putting it in park is like surrendering your handgun to a mugger. Never ever do it.


Willie

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The lesson to me is that all the situational awareness in the world probably won't help in some attacks.
Many robberies, car jacks, muggings happen in environments in which we are by the nature of the situation forced to be in close, vulnerable proximity to people who if they mean us harm have an unfair advantage.
Barring odd behavior or outright appearance it makes for a pretty miserable life to go amongst your fellow man in a constant level of red and the difference between a pedestrian J walking or a desperate man deciding that he will rob your liquor store instead of of buying that bottle of vodka is but a flash in time. In real life there will probably be a car behind you and you will probably be reacting to some act of violence that has already occurred be it a striking blow or a knife or gunshot wound.
In many ways your will to fight back is one of your best weapons and one few of us probably develop very well.

It is important to always leave enough space between your bumper and the car in front of you so that you can leave if necessary. If you pull up on their bumper and a crook pulls up right on your bumper, which you can't control, then you are trapped. I have to resist the tendency to get up close to the car in front of me.
What was the part in Star Trek that was the un-winnable scenario? Those do exist. Having an extra gun under my steering wheel works for me. I can reach it with either hand. It is easily accessible. It is not obvious to anyone looking in the window. I have no moral worries about it being stolen any more than I do about my cell phone or laptop.

So the bad guy, who you didn't know was a bad guy until he drew his weapon, is standing 7 feet way with his gun drawn and pointed directly at you with his finger on the trigger. Mull that one over for a bit.

I did use the available space behind me while feigning compliance. But in the real world you can't always control someone pulling up behind you, or beside you or an innocent bystander walking in front of you while the situation goes down. Yes, I can keep my distance from the car in front of me as long as it is not working in concert with the car behind me and the bad guy on foot. But I can't control approaching traffic or innocent pedestrians. Running over an innocent pedestrian is just as punishable as shooting an innocent bystander.

In our scenario, we had our windows down because Airsoft rounds won't penetrate glass so we would have no way of knowing if we were hit or not if the windows were rolled up. Aside from me and one other student, everyone who drove away took rounds. Sometimes those surrendering the car were not harmed, the thief only wanted the car and some students were shot while complying. Just like in real life you never know how the scenario will play out. Trying to outdraw someone who knows what they are going to do leaves you three steps behind the curve and isn't always the best option.

The purpose of the drill was to show how difficult it is to defend yourself from inside a vehicle and not allow the mere presence of a firearm to leave you with a false sense of security. I suppose Travis Haley, Chris Costa or Chuck Norris could win every time but for us mere mortals the lesson was to keep our awareness up and don't get lulled into a false sense of security.

Having an extra gun under my steering wheel works for me.

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If you are referring to the holsters that strap onto the steering column, those are not allowed in South Carolina. Some were hoping that under the changes to our concealed carry laws that were passed last year those would be allowed but our State Law Enforcement Division has specifically identified those (in a CWP Instructors meeting) as not allowed.

Kobayashi Maru was the unwinnable scenario on Star Trek and yes, they do exist.

"He instructed me to put the truck in park and get out as a car jacker in real life would do."

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So you did what you were told by the goblin? You'll die if you stick to that mindset in the real world. What you were trained to do is to cooperate with your assassin.

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Where did the part about being an assassin come up? I have no problem with giving my vehicle up to a car hijacker. One is fully insured and the other is a beat up 20 year pickup.

It is important to always leave enough space between your bumper and the car in front of you so that you can leave if necessary.

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Pooh! Big city. Stopped in heavy traffic in the inside lane with vehicles in front, back and on both sides. Or even in outside lane with commercial buildings close to the street and obstructions such as utility poles in the sidewalk along the curb.

The purpose of the drill was to show how difficult it is to defend yourself from inside a vehicle and not allow the mere presence of a firearm to leave you with a false sense of security.

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Agreed. Having a gun doesn’t mean it is a good idea to try to use it.

Paying the insurance deductible is far cheaper than hiring a lawyer to defend yourself from criminal or civil wrongful death lawsuit. Nut then again I am the biggest coward on THR.

Pooh! Big city. Stopped in heavy traffic in the inside lane with vehicles in front, back and on both sides. Or even in outside lane with commercial buildings close to the street and obstructions such as utility poles in the sidewalk along the curb.

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Pooh all you want but this isn't a carjacking scenario that you are describing. Carjackers need to get in the car and get away right now. They use stop signs or parking lots, not heavily congested intersections with cars all around them.
I drive in mostly smaller towns and cities where I can leave room between myself and the car in front and USUALLY have an avenue of escape. Of course if the car in front and the car in back are working together then you are screwed.

If you are referring to the holsters that strap onto the steering column, those are not allowed in South Carolina. Some were hoping that under the changes to our concealed carry laws that were passed last year those would be allowed but our State Law Enforcement Division has specifically identified those (in a CWP Instructors meeting) as not allowed.

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I understand these are illegal in a lot of states but I have no idea why. I live in GA and don't carry when I go into S Carolina.

"Where did the part about being an assassin come up? I have no problem with giving my vehicle up to a car hijacker. One is fully insured and the other is a beat up 20 year pickup."'


Because you have absolutely no idea what the person who's holding you at weapons-point *really* wants, and if you're smart, you'll either escape or crush him to the ground like a cockroach. You cannot take chances when confronted like this, and you can take absolutely nothing they say at face value. Want to gamble with your life? That's your choice and your chances. You might be right, or you might get shot. Carjackers are psychopaths, and you don't know what they are thinking, or going to do. "Never Cooperate" is the recommendation given by the pros teaching other pros how to deal with these situations. Never allow yourself to be removed to a secondary crime scene, and never allow yourself to be disarmed. Use your vehicle as a weapon if you can, and if you cannot do so, at least disable it deliberately so it cannot be used to remove you to a secondary crime scene where you *almost certainly* will be killed, according to all statistics. Carjacking isn't a game, and these people are dangerous.


"The purpose of the drill was to show how difficult it is to defend yourself from inside a vehicle and not allow the mere presence of a firearm to leave you with a false sense of security."

All true, and I expect that you were not taking a comprehensive course in "what to do", but rather one that showed you that you're not really trained or prepared to deal with these scenarios. Vehicles are a double edged sword when it comes to maneuver: You can use them to get distance from an adversary on the macro-scale, but you can also be trapped inside one and unable to maneuver in the micro-scale. I've had real world experience with these scenarios played out "down south", and there's no real guarantee of a good outcome.



Willie

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farm23 said:

I am fortunate that I do not have to worry about work rules and carrying a gun. The only time I leave a gun in my vehicle is when going into a government building and then it is locked in a gun safe........

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This is kind of where I'm at also. But there seems to be two different subjects that are being discussed in this thread. One is carrying your gun in the car when you are with it - and the pros and cons of various methods of doing so; and the other is the advisability of keeping/storing (permanently or temporarily) a gun in your car when you are NOT in your car with it. As far as the latter goes, I'm not a fan of a permanent car gun, unless your car is always kept in a bery secure manner and location when not in use. And I think a small lockable gun safe/vault is the responsible thing to do, and cheap insurance, if you need to stash your everyday carry gun to go inside somewhere where carry is legally prohibited. [in some states, leaving a firearm in a parked unattended car may be illegal. It was, in Massacusetts, back in the 1970's, not sure if it still is.]

As far as carry and accessibility WITH or ON YOU in the car, my opinion is that an ankle holster or a shoulder holster are best for access AND secure retention while seated in a car. When I was spending a lot of time in my car on surveillances (both fixed and mobile) my primary gun was in a shoulder rig and my backup was in an ankle holster. Either place was more accessible than waist carry, and still secure. I mention security because there was a famous (at the time at least) LE shoot-out many many years ago where the cop had his gun on the seat or center console - can't quite remember - and a sudden stop by his vehicle caused the gun to go flying forward and onto the floor, somewhere inaccessible to him, as the bullets started flying. Not good.

Having said all this, it is still kinda going to be "what works best for you". Many of us that regularly did it at one time, eventually gave up ankle carry because it caused foot circulation problems. I pooh-poohed this idea at first, till my foot started feeling numb and tingly after extended (regular everyday) ankle holster carry. Then I stopped doing that, and no more foot circulation problems. And now that I am retired and live in a warm climate, a shoulder rig is not practical. So it is either IWB or strong side paddle holster carry for me + mucho situational awareness, either in the car or out of it. (Except on long car trips, then, I must admit, for comfort, the gun does end up in the center console, within a quick reach, even though it's not as secure as being on my body!)

For anyone interested, I have posted a question in Strategies and Tactics rather than risk hijacking this thread.

I worry no more about the likelihood of a gun stolen from my truck than I do about the likelihood of one being stolen from my house. If someone wants something bad enough they will get it.

The one in my truck is more uncomfortable, is more powerful, and has more capacity than the one on my belt. Those are good enough reasons for me to have it there. Now the ones in my locker trump the one in my truck which trumps the one on my belt. I am not going to lose sleep over that fact that someone could break in and steal those either.

I think having the gun stolen out my house would be significantly more likely than ever using it for self defense. I've never had to use a gun while in my house. I have been the victim of a couple of home burglaries. I see way more home burglaries than self defense shootings in homes.

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I will tell you a major difference between my house and a car. My house has a high quality safe, an alarm, and often a dog. I have actually had a home burglary where no guns were stolen had it been a smash and grab in my car that likely would not have been the case.

The other difference is I can carry a gun in my car without leaving it there. I understand other people have other situations. I see little benefit to any car gun that is not loaded and immediately accessible.

Sure many of us have similar measures but demanding such of everyone is no ones right .
I've thought of another situation that will cause some distress as well. Motorcycle travel exposes the rider to many different laws and it's not unusual to have to lock up a gun in a side bag or tour pack that has a lock that a 6 year old could break. Are we to not carry a gun at all if some of the trip takes us through enemy territory where we must keep our gun locked up and separate of ammo?.

Wow, awesome that so many people brag about the fact they would not lose one minutes sleep about arming a criminal that uses their gun to kill me or mine. All about "rights" and nothing about "responsibility" group are just as low on the totem pole to me as the liberal control freaks.

If someone breaks into my house, brings pry bars, and break into my safe to steal a gun that kills an innocent person, I'm still going to feel bad. BUT I will know I took reasonable precautions to avoid helping them in their crime. If I had a pistol in my glove box unattended, not so much.

But heck, just go down to your nearest mental health center, or elementary school, and leave a few rifles in the parking lot with "do not touch!" signs on them. Do it enough and see how many gun rights any of us have left :banghead:

If someone breaks into my house, brings pry bars, and break into my safe to steal a gun that kills an innocent person, I'm still going to feel bad. BUT I will know I took reasonable precautions to avoid helping them in their crime. If I had a pistol in my glove box unattended, not so much.

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If someone steals your car, gets drunk and runs a school bus off the road will you feel responsible.
If they steal a hammer from your shop and use it to break into the neighbors home, steal his gun, and rob a store are you responsible?
If someone steals your credit card info, buys a gun and kills someone with it are you to blame?
I personally feel it is my responsibility to do all I can to make sure none of my possessions are stolen or used inappropriately. It is NOT my responsibility to live in fear of what some CRIMINAL might do with anything he steals from me.
To each his own. If you feel badly then maybe you shouldn't own guns. After all, they are a main target for thieves and you wouldn't want anyone using them for crime.

Unfortunately it's not to each their own, when your stupidity affects me.

Well Mr Blue I haven't had a gun stolen yet. Hammer either for that matter so I am not sure why you would be calling me stupid. Your insecurities are your own problem and you have to deal with them. Just keep them to yourself and all will be well. I don't recall anyone saying a person was stupid for NOT keeping a gun in his/her car. I also don't recall anyone advocating leaving a handgun on the dash wit the windows open. Most people use common sense and take precautions. If you think that is stupid then, to each his own.

Redacted - I apologize for my intemperate response.

This mentality leads to mandatory storage laws, internal/external locks, and criminal prosecution for violations. As has been said, nobody is advocating leaving guns in the open, I'd like to hear what "reasonable " measures the detractors believe we should employ?

:Blueduck's argument is the same as the anti gun crowd has about ALL guns and ALL private citizens that own them.
Is it just me or is Blueduck hard to say? My mind keeps changing part of the word

As with everything, this isn't a "one size fits all" situation. I suggest doing what works for you within the parameters of your local laws and allowing everyone else to do the same. That's what I do. What you do is up to you.

For the same reasons I carry insurance and a toolbox......

20 year old daughter cannot get a CCW. But she can keep one in the car.
I actually used mine, once. I accidentally hit a deer and had to finish the job.

I don't KEEP a gun in my car, but one always accompanies me whenever I go somewhere. It stays in the car while I do my errands and it follows me back into the house when I get home. My county road runs straight for a mile toward my house and I can spot intruders a long way off.

I live in the country and I never know what might waiting for me when I get home. I have seen every thing from a suspected rabid coyote, to hunters who claimed the last owner gave them lifetime trespass rights, to three strangers in a truck who I suspect were about to attempt a break-in.

The sight of an M-1 Garand has a great pacifying effect upon those of belligerent nature.