ruger single 6 vs s&w model 17 masterpiece

suzieqz, the Ruger Single Six is a mighty nice and long lasting revolver. However, compared to a 22/45 or MKIII it is a whole 'nother experience in shooting with precision.

IMO, the grip on a Single Six has to be learned as it is smaller and contorts the hand compared to a pistol. The reach to the trigger is different as your trigger finger angles downward. Also, the weight of the Single Six is balanced in front of your hand instead of partially on top of your hand like a pistol.

As mentioned, the longer hammer swing makes the importance of follow through on a shot fired more noticeable.

Then there is the out of the box trigger on new Single Sixes. The pull weight is definitely much more than the 2 lbs. What that pull weight of the Single Six does is mask the long sear engagement (creep) that comes with the gun. If you merely do a poor man's trigger job or put in a light weight set of Wolff springs, you will notice the creepy trigger.

The Single Six is a great little single action revolver, and out of the box is a great plinker. However, for the precision you may be looking for it will require a trigger job and some practice getting used to the gun. The good thing is that precision practice with a single action revolver usually helps shooting other guns a bit better as well.

By the way, definitely get the adjustable sights if you want more than a plinker. With the adjustable sight models, you can attach a rail for a red dot if needed down the road. Yeah, a red dot on a single action revolver looks out of place until you realize your eyes need a red dot on a single action revolver. Depending on the type of shooting you're doing, of course.

I've never heard of any issues with the VQ sear. Two pounds is not exactly insanely light.

If you want a Single Six with a good trigger (2-3lbs), get an Old Model (1953-1973).

susieqz said:

for myself, i have no choice. i'm not good enow to do what i need to do with a heavy trigger.
if i can't hit a 4'' target at all reasonable ranges offhand, the pistol is worthless to me.

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Life's too short to deal with a so-so trigger.

I had a gunsmith install a VQ sear and trigger in my MkIII shortly after I bought it. I guess I just got used to it, so when I shot my friend's new 22/45 recently, my first thought was "wow! crappy trigger". When he shot my MkIII, his first response was just "wow!!". And this was coming from a 1911 aficionado who trained with the late Col. Cooper. His groups with my VQ/MkIII were considerably smaller than either of us were getting with his stock 22/45.

Just before posting, I checked the pull on my VQ-tuned MkIII with a digital gauge, and it broke at exactly 2lbs. I've never had any issues with or worries over it, but again, a good gunsmith installed it, and no home 'smithing of the engagement surfaces were done.

If I were to take a whack at formal bullseye shooting, the VQ tuning makes this MkIII a reasonable place to start. If you're trigger's not up to snuff, I can certainly recommend a VQ sear/trigger.

Lets look at some popular target pistols, because they are most likely to have the best trigger pulls - at least out-of-the-box. My list will go back to the 1950's, and is not necessarily in order of popularity.

Smith & Wesson model 41 and 48
High Standard - various models.
Colt Match Target Woodsman.
Colt Government Model 1911 platform converted to .22 RF.
Ruger Mk1 and successors.

All of these, with the exception of the Ruger's had (and still have if they remained in production) a safety notch or ledge on the hammer face to prevent a full hammer follow down.

NRA Bullseye rules (for which these guns were designed) has a bottom limit of 2 1/2 (not 2) pounds.

A personal story: When I was a very green tyro at bullseye shooting I attended an Army Small Arms Firing School (Pistol) held yearly at Camp Perry, Ohio - Just before the National Match Championships were held.

I was a firm believer in light trigger pulls, so I availed myself of an opportunity to have my personal High Standard's trigger pull reduced to the lowest possible level that the rules allowed; and have the work performed by High Standard's best gunsmith who was present.

Later I showed my pistol to one of the top U.S. competitors who was an army match instructor - in other words, "THE BEST".

He opined that it had a very nice trigger pull, but if I continued to use it I would never be a serious competitor because I would be unable to shoot well with anything that had a heavier pull. He said, "You should not be paying any attention to the trigger pull, keep focused on your sight picture and alignment."

So I went back and had the exasperated 'smith increase the pull to between 3 1/2 to 4 pounds, which was what had been suggested.

At first my 22 scores dropped, but they soon came back, and my Center Fire and .45 scores took a substantial jump upward!

A year later I shot my way onto a 4-man/woman team officially representing my state-of-residence at the National Matches. The qualifying try-out's were fired with match-grade U.S. 1911A1 pistols with measured 4-pound trigger pulls.

Once I had learned the basic rules of marksmanship the weight of the trigger pull didn't matter.

To be blunt (but not unfriendly) I think you are doing it wrong and may be ingraining some bad habits. Don't feel bad - that's exactly what I did when starting out. When I first went to Camp Perry I was no threat to any winners, but this all changed when I fell into the clutches of some of the best shooters/instructors that our country had to offer. All of this was free by the way, all I paid was a minimal charge for a week's room and board. They even issued match grade .45's and handed out the ammunition.

I'll be back when I have more time, but for now - Your optical sight may be disturbing the pistols balance, and if it increases the size of the target, the image of the dot's movement is equally increased. To compensate you try to make the pistol go off at the exact moment everything looks right, and by the time the bullet exits the bore that "perfect moment" is long gone. If that's what you're doing it will never work.

Been there, done that.

I would never be a serious competitor because I would be unable to shoot well with anything that had a heavier pull.

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So don't get a better trigger because it will screw up your shooting with poor triggers??? To be blunt (but not unfriendly), that makes no sense.

Other than just being cheap, which seems to plague a lot of shooters, there's no reason to struggle with crappy factory triggers. Rugers are well made but they are still mass produced firearms with the creepy, gritty trigger that goes with it. They can ALL stand improvement.

i fail to understand why VQ can mass produce good parts but ruger can't.

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Ruger makes very good parts, and his .22 pistols have sales have been well over two million guns.

But the reason for this success is that they offered a good quality product for much less then the competition did.

But no maker offers a .22 pistol with a trigger pull under 2 1/2 pounds.

It is not that they couldn't, but rather that the very careful precision that would be required, combined with the associated liability would put the price of such a gun that was unquestionably safe through the roof.

Not one single maker of .22 pistols I know of makes a mass produced gun with the specifications you insist on. Some custom gunsmiths will bench-assemble something, but if the work is truly good it will be expensive.

I have what is called a Free Pistol, which doesn't mean that it's a giveaway, but rather that it's design is largely unrestricted by rules. It is intended to be used in certain Internationally recognized matches (think Olympic Games). It is a .22 LR single shot, will shoot under 3/4" groups at 50 meters (over 50 yards) and has a trigger pull that's adjustable and can be set to as little as 1 oz!

When I purchased it during the middle 1960's it cost over $1,000.00. Today it would be well over twice that. The only ones that I know of that would spend that kind of money would be competitors in that particular game, which I was. Absolutely no one would carry it holstered in the field.

Now after admitting that you aren't an experienced pistolsmith, you propose to install an aftermarket sear and attempt some polishing here and there. What happens if it goes full-auto and unexpectedly dumps a full magazine while one of your youngsters happens to be shooting it?

Suzie, keep in mind that polishing to make stuff smooth and shiny involves removing metal. If done with care a buffing wheel and compound CAN provide a gain in the trigger feel. But it's super easy to do too little and get no real change or do too much and turn the flat sear edges into rounded over lumps that won't hold their engagement. It quickly becomes a case of "good luck more than good planning".

With jigs and stones the results are far more controlled and predictable.

If reducing the amount of engagement by chamfering the edges or reducing the metal then ensuring a flat sear face at the correct angle becomes even more critical. Reducing the amount of engagement is the preferred plan to achieve a "glass break" trigger with very little creep. But when you're reducing the amount of engagement the angles and engagement overlap become critical. That is not the time to be buffing things with felt wheels and compounds.

The application of any safety also comes into question when the sear engagement is reduced in this way. With the reduction in engagement some safeties can end up with slop that can allow the gun to be bumped into firing even with the thumb safety engaged. 1911's are a case in point. So any sear work that reduces the amount of engagement needs to have at least a check over of the safety as well.

Simply buffing up the sear edges can reduce or take away the gritty feel of a trigger. But it leaves the long creep in the trigger. Most folks can live with a little heavier trigger if the creep is very short and it has the feel of a good "glass break" trigger. I know that I'm in that group.

Here again shoot any S&W in single action mode to feel what I mean. The S&W single action mechanism doesn't use overlapping sear edges. So the trigger feels like it makes no movement and suddenly the hammer falls.

As far as the cost of Ruger vs VQ you need only compare the price of the VQ custom guns to the Ruger prices. Their V-6 starts at $1400 and by the time you outfit it so you can actually use it figure on north of $1500. If Ruger made their guns to the same standards the amount of hand fitting and finer machine work would require them to sell at the same sort of price.

I got into the same issue when I started looking at upgrading my Ruger 10/22. With just a few things I was suddenly looking at well over the cost of the original rifle. In the end I sucked it up and just bought a complete Tactical Solutions X-Ring with the thumbhole stock. I got a superb rifle for hundreds less than building one up from a catalog.

can you point me to sites that support your position?

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Nope. I don’t see any reason to do so or otherwise defend my opinions beyond what I’ve done. On this forum help is freely given at no charge. Members or visitors can either agree or reject what’s presented.

But I will leave some comments from the horse’s mouth, meaning Volquartsen Custom, themselves. I have underlined some words or passages.

Concerning their sear they say this:

Target Sear for MKII and MKIII

This specially designed sear provides the shooter with a shorter, faster, cleaner breaking trigger pull. The sear is wire EDM-cut from hardened A2 tool steel. Fits Ruger MKII, MKIII and 22/45.

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Notice they make no particular claims concerning how simply installing a sear will affect the trigger pull. However they do have some claims if their whole kit is installed – presumably by a gunsmith or themselves.

HP Action Kit

Trying to figure out which parts are needed to take the Ruger MKII, MKIII and 22/45 to the next level? Look no further than the Pistol Competition Kit. This kit includes our Accurizing Kit, Bolt Tune-Up Kit and CNC-Machined Disconnector. The Pistol Competition Kit is designed to produce a crisp, clean 2.25 trigger pull, eliminate stovepipes, and eliminate failures to fire!

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In other words, they’re is more to obtaining a “crisp, clean 2.25 (pound) trigger pull, with no mention about going to 2 pounds or less.

An alternative is to go to the option of having them make the whole pistol, either using one you provide or they do. This is what they claim the whole project will produce.

Custom Ruger Pistols or Accurizing

First, we start by tuning the action using our own MKIII accurizing kit, as well as installing a pretravel adjustment screw to the trigger to achieve a crisp, clean 2.25 lb. trigger pull. Our high tech Volthane grips (Right hand only) are standard on all of our Mark III pistols unless otherwise noted. We use only stainless steel “match” digitally gauged blanks on all of our pistol models, and we use the same chamber and bore dimensions on each of our pistols models, as well. The chamber is hand cut using our own unique reamer. The feed ramp is also hand polished to ensure proper functioning. Each pistol comes standard with our TL Rear Adjustable Sight and a .125" wide front dovetail sight unless noted. A Weaver style mount is available as an upgrade option. All pistols have a stainless finish, but a matte black finish is also available.

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Now obviously all of this would (I think) be far more expensive then you are prepaid to pay, and I really do understand the economic factor involved.

What I hope you understand is that installing a custom aftermarket sear, combined with polishing some internal stock parts, is not likely to produce a 2 pound trigger pull that’s safe; especially when Volquartsen draws the line at 2.25 pounds, and then only if the whole kit is installed, presumably by an experienced gunsmith or themselves.

Finely, to be yet again absolutely blunt (but by no means unfriendly) I have tuned trigger pulls - lots of them. I get the impression that you haven't. Before you try to get a 2 pound trigger pull on anything you need to get some experience first.

i'm shooting 1000 rounds/month which is the most i can afford, even with 22lr. 22lr now costs 3 times as much as it should..

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Fortunately about 70% of what you need to learn and perfect can be done without firing a shot. Actually shooting is a relatively small part of the whole picture, and what you are doing now may be counterproductive.

uff, i will be hand polishing, not using a dremel.
after you raised this concern about full auto, i researched as best i could.
the only instances i could find are where people changed the angle of the sear without a proper jig.
i found none with other polishing.
can you point me to sites that support your position?

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Even with "hand polishing", whatever you mean by that, without something to control the angles or how the polishing tool is used by the time you shine up the engagement faces you're already looking at having removed some metal. And with the critical nature of that small ..015" wide shelf how can you ensure that you're not altering the angle? Or worse, wearing away at the edge unevenly so that now the pressure isn't shared by the whole width of the face but instead only one spot is touching.

When a gunsmith says that they "polished up the trigger and action" they sure don't mean that they buffed it with something soft and using polishing compound. They mean that they used the correct jigs and super fine stones that leave a mirror finish while maintaining all the correct angles. And where the engagement edges are reduced they do so with stones and jigs again so that when the edges break past each other the whole width releases at the same time.

Anyone that thinks they can match that sort of control and reach desirable results with buffing compounds used by any means is simply fooling themselves. If the gun does come out after the work still safe and better than it was then it's a case of good luck instead of good planning. Or the gun was in REALLY bad shape to start with. And Rugers are simply not that bad.

If you want to learn this stuff by all means do it on your Ruger. But I urge you to look at buying or making up stoning jigs and buying the proper stone files to so this sort of work. And be prepared to buy spare parts when you go too far. And too far you will go at some point. If you don't ruin a few parts then you will never learn where the limits are. The cost of the parts is your tuition costs for the skills you'll learn.

nuts. i'm gonna get a smith.

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Gunsmith or Smith & Wesson?

Seriously, if you can afford it send it to Volquartsen Custom and have them install a trigger system. No one can do it better.

I still don't think the trigger is at the bottom of your core problem, which is to be able to shoot 4-inch groups at 50 yards. That is a substantial challenge that won't go away simply because you lighten the trigger pull. It's only a partial solution to a much larger issue.

Jesus, for those who have ACTUALLY DONE IT, all you have to do is buy the sear and install it. Like the other nine million people who have done it. This is being waaaaay over-complicated.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=208

I agree with CraigC.

As I mentioned earlier, simply dropping the VQ sear and trigger installed in my MkIII vastly improved the trigger, and it didn't take a trip to VQ or other fancy 'smithing to do it.

And it wasn't "vastly improved" because it turned it into a top-end bullesye gun or because it was lighter - it was simply because it broke much cleanly and consistently with less overtravel than the stock trigger. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the pull weight. On this regard, then, I agree with Old Fuff - pull weight isn't everything. There's a lot more to a quality trigger than "light". To that end, then, I do think improving a trigger that needs it is worthwhile. The VQ sear seems the most straightforward route.

I've lost track of how many Bullseye competitors I've known who have just installed the VQ kit - somewhere between one and two dozen, I'd guess. To my knowledge, they have all been happy with the results w/o any polishing or whatever. This includes people scoring in the middle 800's.

At most matches I can find someone with a Ruger out scoring someone with a Hammerli. I personally campaign a model 41 because I got it before the 22/45 came out and I don't like the Mk II/III grip angle, but a Ruger with the VQ kit is easily competitive at least up to Master class. Competitive, cheap, and usually not fussy at all; nothing not to like.