What is better for steel targets?

I believe 30 feet is too close

10 yards is too close in my opinion. No reason to have steel closer than a min of 20 yards and 25+ yards is even better especially when others are spectating or using the range themselves. My private club specifies no closer than 25 yards and even drew a line. I myself have been "peppered" by debris when another shooter was trying shoot steel at 15 yards. Your contemplating a harder bullet? I wouldnt risk shooting close steel, but I am not you of course.

Be safe.

If they are cast lead then they will spatter. If they are slower the nose will spatter and the back of the bullet will just fall back with minimal bounce back.

Seent this a LOT in cowboy action shooting. The ground for about two or three feet at most in front of the targets is full of little lead "coins" from bullets that were too slow to fully disintegrate.

From shooting steel matches with jacketed and plated the odd time a piece of jacket will come back towards the firing line. But if the face of the targets is smooth with no pock marks it's almost like the wind brings it back more than any sort of bounce back energy.

But add a few pock marks and all bets are off. Same with targets supported by hooks or chain links that pass through and are exposed on the front of the target. Bullets that spatter next to these thru face items can re-direct the spatter and jacket fragments from traveling out along the face to traveling back to the firing line. There's not a lot of energy by that time but some pieces can still be large enough to inflict small cuts.

Slower and softer is the way to go when shooting steel targets up close. You want as much energy as possible expended on the target to minimize splash back. I shoot lots of SASS matches and there is a velocity limit on Cowboy ammunition for a reason, and that's to protect the shooters and spectators from ricochets.

In your case, I'd go to a lighter bullet with a BHN of about 12, and load them as light as will cycle the action on your pistol. I use 200 gr. RNFP for Wild Bunch matches for both the .45 acp and .45 Colt rifle, and it works just great.

As for AR500 steel, it's hardened all the way through, since it's the carbon content (among other things) that makes it tough, but even AR500 will dimple if shot with high velocity jacketed rounds. It will most likely warp before dimpling if you just shoot it with low velocity soft bullets, though.

Hope this helps.

Fred

If you shoot USPSA, you'll end shooting quite a lot of steel at ~30 feet. Here's their rule on minimum distances:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are
used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors
and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them
while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with
physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal
targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the
competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23
feet minimum distance (see Rule 10.5.17). Care s

ReloaderFred said:

Slower and softer is the way to go when shooting steel targets up close. You want as much energy as possible expended on the target to minimize splash back. I shoot lots of SASS matches and there is a velocity limit on Cowboy ammunition for a reason, and that's to protect the shooters and spectators from ricochets.

Click to expand...

That is the opposite of the FBI's position on the matter. Their view is that you want the bullet to splatter, not bounce while remaining intact. The way to make sure the bullet splatters is to drive it faster. Tough, large, slow rounds are the most likely to bounce back intact and retain enough momentum to inflict a penetrating, dangerous wound.

"Bullet Design

A high quality, higher power factored ammunition is essential to reduce splatter. Simply stated, to minimize the size and pattern of splatter, drive the projectile harder. Consequently, a lead bullet with a low velocity is the worst option for steel target training. For safe training, it is recommended that only higher power factored bullets be used. A desirable round to produce consistent splatter is a jacketed hollow-point with a velocity of 1225 fps. Another issue is the "correlation factor." This generally refers to how well a bullet holds together to give controlled expansion and penetration. In the case of steel target training, the best bullet is a frangible style round. The high velocity, frangible design of such bullets creates a predictable shattering effect on impact."

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro.../67903-Steel-reactive-targets-Safety-and-use/

AR is hardened all the way through. And for handgun use it's also overkill. Even 3/8 mild steel is fine for any non Magnum hand gun ammo. What will happen is that a mild steel target develops a bowl like shape over time. But if you keep alternating the sides then it'll stay flat.

The happy middle ground for handgun targets is some sort of higher strength and springier alloy but without the expense of the top end AR500.

Over time if you shoot enough lead at the target and paint it enough times the surface will become rough from the paint chipping and any lead that happens to gall/stick to the surface. A wire cup brush in a cheap angle grinder will do a great job of removing it all and freshening up the face. Or one of the flat surface prep flap sanding discs used in that same cheap angle grinder. Just use something coarse to keep it from clogging from the paint.

When I read "surface grinding" my machine shop background says "he wants to take it in and get it "SURFACE GROUND" as on a big machine that produces finely finished and very flat surfaces. I'm going to assume that you didn't mean that since such work would be WAY over the top for freshening up the face of a steel target.

If you do go with anything less than AR500 though you need to watch for anyone that wants to shoot it with a Magnum handgun or any of the rifle calibers that are faster than around 2000 fps. Once you start getting near to 3000fps the bullets cut through mild steel and lesser alloys like a drill bit but faster. The hot stuff demands AR500. Or at longer distances where the bullets have slowed down you can get away with AR400 which is somewhat cheaper.

My clubs have lots of targets that we've made up from 3/8 and 1/2 inch plain mild steel. Again as long as we can keep those pesky Magnum and rifle shooters away from them there isn't a hint of a problem and the targets last for many years of hard use.

Oh, and you're going to end up messing up your gun or your gun's accuracy if you put too much emphasis on what the bullet does when it hits the steel instead of how well the gun shoots said bullets. The bullets meeting the steel will take care of themselves. You don't need to worry about bounce back unless you're shooting at something so thin and durable that it acts like a trampoline. And you won't be doing that in any case.

Instead concentrate on what sort of lead alloy the gun wants to shoot and shoot well with no leading of the bore.


One thing to watch for on steel targets. A lot of stories of "bounce back" are not from any such thing as "bounce back" And in fact unless your'e shooting steel shot at the targets there is no such thing as bounce back.

What can happen is that the side spatter can be re-directed by the target stand or rocks in the ground and some of the lead can end up coming back at the shooting iine. The cure for this is to ensure that there's no parts or at least minimal amounts of the stand exposed to the side spatter that can re-deflect some of the lead back at you. This means no upside down "T" shaped targets with a welded on flat base. The lower flange of the T can and will catch and aim the spatter back at the firing line. An "L shaped target with the lower flat leg sitting BEHIND the target is the way to go. And if it's sitting on a steel rail of any sort the front vertical face of the "L" needs to be flush with the front face of the angle metal holding the target. If it's sitting back a ways the spatter will hit the horizontal part and be directed back at the firing line once again.

To get a better feel for all this look at this video of slow motion bullet impacts. Pay particular attention to the hand gun bullets both jacketed and cast. It'll give you a lot better idea of how a bullet disintegrates when it hits steel. And after seeing this video you'll better understand what I'm saying about the spatter being re-directed by horizontal surfaces that are in the path of the target face's spatter pattern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

GSSF has had thousands of shooters put millions of rounds (9mm, .40, .357"auto", 10mm, .45acp) into steel targets at 33'. In my experience, with properly setup steel, the higher the velocity, the greater the chance the bullet will flatten into a pancake and end up pretty much directly under the steel target, but some fraction of the lead from the bullet will be directed outwards.

Here's a lucky shot, some fractions of a second after imact on a GSSF plate rack.

ATLDave,

I know what the FBI says, and having been to the FBI Academy at Quantico, VA, and shot on their ranges, I know that everything they say isn't gospel. I'm also a former rangemaster for a department of over 600 sworn personnel, and a current SASS shooter, so I've got a little experience in shooting steel targets, both close and far. In fact, we shot the Oregon State Championship match just this past weekend, and put roughly 44,000 soft lead bullets on steel targets at distances from 5 yards to 20 yards (fast and furiously I might add). The range we shot at has had injuries from shooting steel targets, but none of them have been from shooting soft lead bullets. They've all been from jacketed bullets that were shot at higher velocities, and they ranged from injuries to shooters to a back window being put out of a new Suburban in the parking lot. The jacketed bullet was found on the dashboard of the Chevy.

Whenever we have a new shooter at one of our SASS matches, and they're shooting high velocity factory lead ammunition, we get splattered with lead. They're quickly given some of our lower powered "cowboy loads", and all is well.

We've had this argument with the IDPA crowd over higher velocity jacketed bullets vs. lower powered lead bullets on steel targets and we've proven time and time again that we get less splatter with our low powered loads than they do with their high powered jacketed loads out of handguns and rifles.

The real key is properly placed targets and appropriate ammunition. And we'll prove it again the first Sunday of every month at our local SASS match.

Hope this helps.

Fred

ReloaderFred,

The issue isn't splatter. Splatter happens. That's why eye protection - serious eye protection, not your regular glasses - is essential when shooting steel or watching someone else shoot it. You're right that the area around the steel has a lot to do with how the splatter is directed. It doesn't feel great to get cut by a piece of copper or lead splatter. But it won't likely kill you, nor even send you to the hospital 99.99% of the time.

But a bullet that retains its mass and comes off the steel with >500 fps of velocity is a potentially lethal projectile, especially if it was heavy to begin with. The few times that I have seen a projectile come off steel, remain intact, and not drop straight down, it was always a .45. IIRC, however, these were FMJ's. Maybe soft lead loads spatter reliably at low velocities. Sounds like you've got a long track record supporting it, and I've got no reason to think you're lying!

I have bought all of my targets from Shootingtargets7.com and they have a webpage on safe distances and mounting angle tips - http://shootingtargets7.com/tips-care/.

I shoot what I brung and depend on target design, condition, and shooting glasses. I have gotten hit a number of times over the years.

Anecdotes. Bear in mind that these are the aggregate of over 40 years of shooting and don't be scared off. Wear eye protection.

The only case I ever had of actual bounceback was a .44 Special SWC that rebounded off a railroad tie that a plate was on - ok, I flinched the shot - and hit me in the head from about 10 yards. It did not penetrate, draw blood, or even leave a bruise.

The greatest pain was from a fragment of lead from one of those nice mild cowboy loads that hit me just above the knee and left a knot and bruise that persisted for weeks. It wasn't the load or the target, it was the layout. The club set up stages too close together and did not get the plates perfectly square to the firing position. A chunk deflected over to the next stage which was set up cheek by jowl. Ouch.

The most spectacular was a fragment of USPSA jacket off a Pepper Popper that cut me over the short ribs. I was RO at the time and felt the impact but kept up with the shooter and did not realize the extent until somebody pointed out that my shirt was soaked with blood. Fortunately the fragment had broken the skin but not imbedded in my hide.

USPSA now says "maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet." They have been sneaking up on the targets, I remember when it was 11 meters, then 10 meters, then 10 yards. But 23 feet? That is about 7 meters.

The next worse whack I took was off a pistol plate that some SOB had shot with a rifle and left a crater that turned a bullet around. Silly me, I thought the signage and range rules would be followed and did not inspect the plate before shooting. Of course I retired the plate after that.

I recently saw a novel plate design. The hanging hardware put the plate at a sharp back angle, at least 30 degrees, maybe more. The plate was cut oval so that at the hanging angle, you saw it as round. Bullet fragments were hitting the ground well behind the plate. They were chewing up the homemade stand so the owner was going to have to redesign that. But it seemed a very safe steel target.

Please Make your pictures waaay smaller. Nearly 5,000 by nearly 4,000 pixels will take all day to load this page for a dial-up member.
Cast/plated bullets will splat to a flat disk upon impact with any steel target. Hardness really isn't an issue.

CMV said:

For something slow moving like .45ACP 230 gr? I'm thinking I want softer but don't know if soft + slower MV could 'bounce' bullets off AR500 gongs & silhouettes vs shattering/splattering them.

Reason I ask is I'm about out of Berry's plated. They seem to break up pretty good when they hit steel. But I want to try out some MBC since I've been very happy with the few other projectiles I got from them. Not sure if I want their softball or pinbuster for that application.

I shoot pistol at a minimum of 30' at steel, my targets are in great shape, and all are hung with a ~20° back angle. I get some spatter occasionally, but it's generally small pieces that are moving at 'underhand toss' velocity by the time they get to me.

Also, if I do switch to something like the MBC:
SoftBall! - Hi-Tek
.452 Diameter
.45 ACP
230 Grain RN
Brinell 18

Should I change my load any? Right now it's mixed HS brass, CCI LPP, 5.0gr W231, 230gr Berry's plated, 1.215" OAL.

Are the coated bullets OK for stuff with polygonal rifling like an HK?

Click to expand...

For most handgun loads using soft point or some version of cast bullets 1/2in. T1 steel is sufficient, and way cheaper than AR.
As long as the target is a swinger , or laydown of some sort, 10-12 yds is doable, but 25yds and beyond give a bunch more of a comfort zone.

Sorry about the huge plate rack picture...but you don't really get the "full effect" of all the flying frags at 1/4 resolution...but that's what it points at now.

I've been hit with plenty of frags. I used to shoot a regular weekly match that alternated between head to head steel plates and bowling pins. The plate racks at that range were "home made" from mild steel and rebar. The plates themselves were in horrible condition, badly pitted, and you learned to make yourself as small as possible or mostly hide behind another spectator while watching the other shooters One time, I got a big frag from my own (factory loaded) 115gr FMJ in the left cheek. It stung pretty bad, and I was shocked to find I wasn't bleeding.

Fast forward about 10 years, and I was shooting a bowling pin match with my own loads. I hit a pin and the bullet made an almost perfect return. I took a fully intact 230gr JHP right between the eyes. It felt like I'd been punched in the face. After a brief pause to make sure I was more or less ok, I finished the stage. That one did cut my nose in several places and bled enough that I decided I was done for the night. That was also the last time I shot wearing my every day Rx glasses. I only shoot now with my Rudy Project glasses with Rx insert. That 230gr JHP was a "light load" that averages 680fps...which I later read was a really bad idea for use on bowling pins. I try keep a minimum velocity of 750-800fps now for pin shooting (depending on bullet weight).

I have been shooting Steel Challenge for a while.

My records indicate that their closest steel target is 7 yds. These are not tilted, but flat faced, and range from 8" and 10" circles to 18" X 24" rectangles.

Have been hit with 'splatter' but it seemed to fall on me rather than hit me like a ricochet, and never caused a problem.