“Hero” charges into gunfight and is killed by police

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I'm just curious, is it likely only the nature of the call being an officer down/active shooter that got hurley immediately tagged by the responding officer? I'm just thinking if he wasn't holding it in a threatening manor i.e. shouldered, pointed, wouldn't a verbal command to drop the weapon have been prudent?

Definitely not judging, wasn't there, don't have enough information to say one way or the other. I realize the dynamic can be greatly affected by the officer down call and the fact that hurley could have very well been standing next to 2 down bodies at the time he was holding the AR.
 
Occasionally a war story is appropriate... this illustrates how to make sure (as much as possible) that you're not mistaken for the bad guy... We were jammed up that day - all my officers were tied up on calls so I responded to a call of folks pointing guns at each other in front of a jewelry store... As I arrived I was met by an off duty officer dressed in shorts with un-tucked shirt holding his badge high in the air and soon learned that he'd walked into a jewelry store where an armed robbery was in progress and quickly dropped down and scooted back outside when the robbers pointed guns in his direction - without saying a word... Before I got there the robbers exited the store and there was an armed stand-off as they did so, with the off-duty officer using parked vehicles for cover and not willing to fire since it was a small strip mall with glass storefronts that the bad guys were standing in front of - then running in front of as they fled. He then very wisely holstered his small snub nosed off-duty piece and waited for officers to arrive...

Now for the rest of the story... both the robbers and the off-duty officer (actually a captain with another department) and the robbers were black men. The off-duty officer was very casually dressed (this is south Florida and that's how many of us are dressed when we're not working...) - the robbers were both wearing three piece suits... That off-duty cop did everything right and thankfully no shots were fired at all.... By the way, we never caught the robbers (they'd over-powered the store owner, tied him up and were doing their thing when the off-duty cop came in to buy something for his wife...).

Can't tell you how grateful I was that the captain kept his head and did the right thing... Arriving on a hot call and seeing guys with guns running... how would you know who were the suspects and who was the witness/ off duty cop or armed citizen... Very dangerous - and as always not clear cut at all...
 
Occasionally a war story is appropriate... this illustrates how to make sure (as much as possible) that you're not mistaken for the bad guy... We were jammed up that day - all my officers were tied up on calls so I responded to a call of folks pointing guns at each other in front of a jewelry store... As I arrived I was met by an off duty officer dressed in shorts with un-tucked shirt holding his badge high in the air and soon learned that he'd walked into a jewelry store where an armed robbery was in progress and quickly dropped down and scooted back outside when the robbers pointed guns in his direction - without saying a word... Before I got there the robbers exited the store and there was an armed stand-off as they did so, with the off-duty officer using parked vehicles for cover and not willing to fire since it was a small strip mall with glass storefronts that the bad guys were standing in front of - then running in front of as they fled. He then very wisely holstered his small snub nosed off-duty piece and waited for officers to arrive...

Now for the rest of the story... both the robbers and the off-duty officer (actually a captain with another department) and the robbers were black men. The off-duty officer was very casually dressed (this is south Florida and that's how many of us are dressed when we're not working...) - the robbers were both wearing three piece suits... That off-duty cop did everything right and thankfully no shots were fired at all.... By the way, we never caught the robbers (they'd over-powered the store owner, tied him up and were doing their thing when the off-duty cop came in to buy something for his wife...).

Can't tell you how grateful I was that the captain kept his head and did the right thing... Arriving on a hot call and seeing guys with guns running... how would you know who were the suspects and who was the witness/ off duty cop or armed citizen... Very dangerous - and as always not clear cut at all...

Good story. Stuff like this makes me question every thread about EDC and scenarios. Why folks think and act as if they expect to get into an active shooter situation or running gun battle or walk into a crime scene is baffling to me.

You don’t want to be that guy. First response ought to be get the hell out of there, IMO.
 
To summarize.. from my experience - nothing on the street is clear cut right/wrong, good/bad... What looks like one thing in the heat of the moment - may be something entirely else upon further inspection or additional information. Anyone responding to a right now, edge of your seat, emergency... will never know the whole story until after the dust settles... That goes for all of us on most occasions. It would be nice if all the out and out bad guys looked the part - and all of the good guys wore white hats or American flag t-shirts - but that's not real life. For the hundredth time - sure glad I'm out of police work - and anyone doing the job deserves all of our respect and support...
 
don't have enough information to say one way or the other

Until we see video from the area cameras we won't know how Johnny Hurley was holding the rifle and can't comment beyond the advice given. Before you find yourself in this situation, practice mentally over and over what you'll do after pulling the trigger and consider what you need to do to not be seen as a threat.
 
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I can only think back to what my CCW instructor told us and that was simply put, 'Don't be a hero unless you and those with you are threatened.' Meaning, is a weapon being pointed in my direction? Having said that, I ask myself, 'How would I react in the same situation?' Adrenaline amped, trying my level best to asses the situation in a micro-second I for one would be scared s***less. I'd like to think that I'd have the wherewithal to dial 911 and pray to God that the LEOs arrived on scene forthwith and that I was not forced into a situation where I had to draw my weapon.
 
The tragedy of this incident is horrifically compounded because one of the decisions made by a heroic private citizen during his involvement apparently resulted in him being shot by arriving police. It wasn't his decision alone, of course, as the cop's decision was part of the equation.

LE have long known of the risks associated with becoming involved in high risk/low frequency events like an OIS while off-duty or in plainclothes/UC situations. I listened to serious discussions of this back when I attended an outside week of training devoted to issues facing plainclothes cops. Student cops had to use their authorized plainclothes/UC/Street Enforcement unit weapons, holsters and approved street clothes. No uniform gun belts, etc. The risks of not being identified as a plainclothes/UC cop, or an off-duty cop making the decision to intervene at a violent crime, were discussed at length. It's only become more prevalent as a training topic, and even something increasingly addressed by Policy, in the ensuing years.

None of this does the lawfully armed private citizen any good, unless they seek to avail themselves of training which includes discussion of the risks of being misidentified by arriving LE.

Interestingly, last night over cigars another couple of current/active cops, another retired cop and myself were talking about this subject. Another guy who had only worked as a cop for a few years, but had worked in and outside CONUS as a security contractor for various gov affiliated organizations, also offered some of his experiences seeing how this risk/threat was considered and handled by agencies outside the US, including Israel. Lots of interesting experiences brought up and discussed. This allowed experiences covering the time period of the present, going back to the beginning of the 80's, to be considered.

Bottom line? Even trained LE/Gov/Mil have come up with various techniques, methods and policies to try and mitigate the risk of the non-uniformed cops/agents being misidentified and killed by other cops/agents. Various methods have worked with varying success, because when it comes right down to it, the effectiveness of anything relies upon how it's used and interpreted by people. Even other trained people.

Private citizens face the daunting uphill challenge of not only not knowing what the trained professionals know and are trained to do, but how could they ever know if any other private citizens may be similarly involved in the same incident?

BTW, the general consensus among the group last night was that it would have to be an extraordinary situation in order to become an active participant in an off-duty (or retirement, former cop, etc) shooting incident ... and the primary tactic to hopefully be successfully employed at any such incident would be for the off-duty/retired cop to NOT be holding a weapon in his/her hands when the cavalry did arrive. (That requires being aware of their arrival, to be sure, which is another risk factor to consider when someone is experiencing whatever form of sensory deficit or other distractions.) Maybe an active or retirement bade/credentials held up high (not pointed at anyone) in a hand, but nothing that could be mistaken for a weapon.

Now, the flip side of that coin (showing active/retirement badge, ID) is that I've observed what can happen when cops have been presented with Shoot/No-Shoot (threat/non-threat) scenarios in training and quals, even using "life size" full-color photo targets where the pictured figures could be modified to be "holding" anything from a gun, to a camera, beer bottle ... or a badge. Even an image where someone wearing body armor (over a t-shirt & jeans) and holding a subgun in their hands, with the word POLICE emblazoned on the body armor. You make the drill scenarios a bit fast-paced, frenetic and demanding (even without the targets actually shooting back at you, of course), and some cop shooter may occasionally shoot the "good guy/gal" that wasn't supposed to be shot. :uhoh::scrutiny::cuss:

Sure, that results in a failure for the scenario, with discussion and remediation ... but it happened. Now, change the light conditions, add in some sound and fury of the moment, season it with some natural chemical cocktail produced by the body under actual high stress/fear, and then add a pinch of even reasonable fear ... and bad decisions and mistakes seem to be an occasional part of the human experience. Along with the unwanted consequences, of course.
 
It just seems like one of those things that unfortunately, very few people will consider or train for. Most people, whether they carry or not, know that the chances of being in an armed conflict are slim to none so training or being prepared for it is pretty low on this list. Being in an armed conflict and winning the gunfight, only to be shot by a responding LEO, even less so, so why bother.......
 
Rest in peace, Mr. Hurley.

I do not presume to know exactly what Mr. Hurley was doing, that resulted in his demise, so this is not a commentary on his specific actions, but I just wanted to say this: In the event that I ever have the opportunity to put my hands on a bad guy’s weapon, I will only do so as absolutely necessary, and as briefly as possible. I recognize the possibility of having to disarm a violent criminal, because that may well be part of how I deal with a armed robbery, with me being the intended victim.

If, as a retired LEO, and therefore now just another J.Q. Citizen, I ever happen to render a violent criminal to “suspect down” status, and am concerned about him reaching for his downed weapon, well, again, Job One is for me to avoid being shot.

If arriving officers shoot me, well, that could mean the the bad guy can then recover his weapon, and also grab my weapon. That could result in further disharmony.

I worked 33+ years for a PD that had lost at an undercover officer, in a blue-on-blue incident, before I was hired, and I lost count of the number of times we injured each other, in blue-on-blue incidents. The local Sheriff’s Office had some particularly bad times, with this, too.

On the equipment side of things, a holster that enables expedient and safe re-holstering, remains a good idea. (I did not tell anyone to speed-re-holster.)
 
This article purports that Hurley was seen holding an AR and shot by a responding officer: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-man-shot-colorado-gunman-killed-officer-78500318

It's a natural impulse to seize the vanquished offender's weapon to control it. My take is that if that individual is on the ground then, as many others have posted online, kick it away out of reach. That also implies the shooter was apparently unresponsive and it seemed safe to approach. I don't know how many others came by to assist, but we all know the scene will get jammed with passersby and looky loos who may do even worse disturbing evidence. And if they were not there, having your fingerprints on the weapon during post incident forensics certainly clouds the investigation. Had there been no other witnesses it could be concluded early on the Samaritan was actually the shooter. In this case, that's exactly what happened by sight alone according to witnesses.

Takeaways for us, don't handle the weapon. In fact, don't appear armed. If asked if you are, don't reach. Some recommend having your gun laying to one side in the open so that it helps the officer consider you less a threat. Another aid may be to dial 911 and be on the phone identifying yourself (not holding a gun) so that dispatch may relay information to the police.There is a strong tendency to approach someone talking to dispatch as the victim.

But, this never really happens, so, we never consider it or even rehearse it. That would be silly - perhaps one day we will ask Mr Hurley his thoughts on that.Having worked Training in the military and been trained, at least walking thru some scenarios helps sort out how you should respond if you cannot leave the scene peaceably. Keep in mind that we cannot have an omniscient birds eye view of the incident and unanticipated consequences are more often the rule than the exception.

That goes for us as the aiding bystander after the shots are done. Should we be scuffing up the pavement removing markings, kicking shell cases? It's a crime scene. If the shooter is down, someone is doing all they can for the officer, and the Good Guy off to one side, is your presence literally On The Scene really helping? Many will justify it yet once officers are there what do they do? Clear out all the onlookers messing things up and making a perimeter to get them out from underfoot. It would be much more helpful to create distance from the scene and direct others to stay back.

The last shooting of a Good Samaritan I've studied was the confrontation with a shooter wheeling a shopping cart full of his guns into a large box store, he was confronted shortly until the shooters female partner killed the Samaritan coming up from behind. She shot him in the back. He never saw it coming. You can only consider what little you can see, you can't always see what you need to know.
 
I believe it was already asked and answered in the press whether this jurisdiction uses body cams and it was determined that they do not. It's planned but not funded IIRC. If that is incorrect pls post.
 
It's terrible all the way around.
I came looking for this thread when I saw the article and was prepared to make the same point many others have already made.
Holding the rifle when the police arrived was not wise obviously, but most of us are not trained for situations like this.
A man had just faced down an AR with a handgun and came out on top. I can't imagine the adrenaline and the stress his system was under in the moments following the incident. His mental state was no doubt going haywire in the aftermath.
It's a sad situation for him and his family, as well as the officer who has to live with the fact that he killed the good guy. No winners here.
 
Not to be belabor the good points, but this is why some decent FOF exercises that include how to respond to the aftermath are good ideas - if you can get some of the experiences. I've been through a few where the shooting ceases, the police (real officers in the exercise in some) arrive and you have to deal with it. Got 'shot' by an officer just standing there because I 'moved'.

One part of training is to establish routines and actions that can replace panic and adrenaline driven behaviors.
 
I haven't read every post, so this is probably already been addressed, but I'm thinking after a deadly gunfight, shooters down, cop laying dead, etc... I might have picked up the weapon to get it away from the aggressor but would have promptly discarded it. For me I think it would just be instinctual to put my hands up and drop a knee to the ground to exhibit a non threatening posture for responding LE so as to not be shot.

But again, it's a fast moving scenario with many factors at play, can't really armchair quarterback something you did not see and don't have all the facts. I just find it so unfortunate that the guy intervened and put himself at risk to save others and got shot for his trouble. Man, my prayers to the family and to the cop who has to live with taking out a friendly.....
 
Dropping to a knee with a long arm near is NOT non-threatening. Get away from the gun - can folks simply get this. You do not want to be near the shooter!

If you want to deal with the aggressor and you have a gun, guess what you can do? I think it was said here, the officers won't approach to secure the gun unless they have several of them to cover the bad person.

I don't think we mentioned this - How do you know if said crazy person is alone and doesn't have a backup. Not unknown to have such to ambush the first responders. Just happened in San Antonio the other day.

So while you are prancing around with your be a hero after game. Spiking the football, so to speak - surprise.
 
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Dropping to a knee with a long arm near is NOT non-threatening. Get away from the gun - can folks simply get this. You do not want to be near the shooter!.

Yeah, hands up, knees in the dirt is pretty much the universal most non threatening posture you can take short of laying face down, fingers interlocked behind your head, I'm sure most would agree. If you read and understood my post, I said drop and put your hands up to responding LE "after discarding the shooters weapon".
 
I haven't read every post, so this is probably already been addressed, but I'm thinking after a deadly gunfight, shooters down, cop laying dead, etc... I might have picked up the weapon to get it away from the aggressor but would have promptly discarded it. For me I think it would just be instinctual to put my hands up and drop a knee to the ground to exhibit a non threatening posture for responding LE so as to not be shot.

If you read the entire thread you will find posts by retired and serving LE and none of them recommend handling the shooter's weapon. There is no need to secure the shooter's weapon. There is no need to get close enough to the downed shooter to touch his weapon. Kicking it away is how countless TV and movie portrayals say is the right thing to do. You need to understand that those portrayals bear little resemblance to real life. Kicking the shooters weapon away and picking it up are dramatic tools to tell the audience that the fight is over. That's all they are.

The crime scene techs will prefer that everything is in the same place it was when the incident ended.

Do not approach the downed shooter. Do not touch his weapon or anything else. Move to a position that gives you cover and wait. Don't be visibly armed when the responding officers arrive. Comply with any commands they give you.
 
Listen to Jeff!

If you are near the weapon, which the post suggested, that is not non-threatening as you can get the weapon pretty quickly. You should not be handling the weapon at all - yeah, maybe you can come up with some scenario why you might as the Zombies come but, get away from it.

Being near the weapon even in your universal position is not a good idea. The slight twitch from you, bang. The officer having to cover you as you are near the officer, a twitch from them, bang.

There is no reason to be near the bad guy. Engage and get back, back, back. In a class, the instructor made this point about males. They get the 'drop' on the bad guy and tell him to do this or that. The bad guy refuses and the dominant male brain approaches the bad guy, yelling instructions until he is too close. The instructor yelled instructions as he backed away - we are not the law that needs approach and they do that as teams.
 
Understood. Yes, all makes perfect sense. Wasn't saying it was appropriate for Mr. Hurley to take control of the shooters weapon, it's just surprising that he didn't have the instincts to get any weapon out of his hands/reach when he had the chance and touch the sky. It probably would have ended differently.....
 
He didn't have a cognitive appreciation of the situation. He was stuck in a aggressive, dominance mode and probably thought of himself as an obvious good guy. It comes from being a naive firearms user who hasn't thought through one's actions and/or practices them. I'm an obvious hero!! Now I am not blaming him in that sense but explaining it. He also could have narrowed perceptual and decision making abilities being flooded with stress hormones.

If you look at all the bad decisions involved in similar interactions, it is understandable and why one should avoid such.
 
He didn't have a cognitive appreciation of the situation. He was stuck in a aggressive, dominance mode and probably thought of himself as an obvious good guy. It comes from being a naive firearms user who hasn't thought through one's actions and/or practices them. I'm an obvious hero!! Now I am not blaming him in that sense but explaining it. He also could have narrowed perceptual and decision making abilities being flooded with stress hormones.

If you look at all the bad decisions involved in similar interactions, it is understandable and why one should avoid such.
Agreed. That is a stressful situation, he had just killed somebody, his brain might not have even been working. An average citizen like that, he probably didn't even consider how he was going to be perceived until lead was well on its way. Just super sucky. He did a good thing but nobody could get it sorted out. Standing at the scene of an officer down, active shooter situation with an AR15 in hand, isn't a good look. Nobody can really blame the responding police for killing him....
 
He didn't have a cognitive appreciation of the situation. He was stuck in a aggressive, dominance mode and probably thought of himself as an obvious good guy. It comes from being a naive firearms user who hasn't thought through one's actions and/or practices them.

Isn't that the great many of us, though? :(

Warrior mindset.

Alpha male sheepdog.

Always have a plan to kill those you meet.
 
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