“Small hands and women shooters”

[ATLDave]

"Most" is not all though

True, although it's not as though revolvers are lighter in general.

 

[LiveLife]

Most people have enough arm and hand strength to hold even a fairly heavy pistol out in a two-handed grip for 30 seconds.

"Most" is not all though

If you cannot hold a pistol using two-handed grip for 30 seconds, you are using improper grip that is tiring the hand/forearm muscles.

Shifting the grip work to larger shoulder/chest/back muscles will allow you to not only steady the pistol but to hold the pistol (even heavier full size pistols) for 30 seconds or more.

Try it. Use the push/pull method outlined in previous post and once work of holding the pistol is shifted to larger shoulder/chest/back muscles, see how long you can hold the pistol - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902444

 

[LiveLife]

The worry for me with weak hands and wrists with an auto is limp wristing.

Yes, while the fact of weak hands and limp wristing I agree with, my myth statement was for the "worry for me" as this can be corrected with proper training.

During my point shooting demonstration, limp wristing is intentionally demonstrated but I point out that is due to improper grip and once proper grip is applied, limp wristing of slide not reliably cycling can be prevented.

The slide needs something to fight back against in order to cycle, it's physics

Yes. Even using lighter target loads, shooting with just two fingers (thumb and 3rd finger) with reliable slide cycling is demonstrated which is transferring the work of grip to larger shoulder/chest/back muscles which provide resistance for the slide to reliably cycle - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...udes-towards-semi-autos.861163/#post-11339576


This from U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

"4. Checking For Proper Grip: ...

e. The rapid onset of fatigue and soreness of the shooting hand is usually the result of an incorrect grip.

f. Checking for straight to the rear recoil directly into the shooting arm and shoulder ...
​

... In the final analysis, there is only one correct grip for you. It is one that is firm; affords the individual shooter the maximum degree of control over maintaining sight alignment and allows positive, straight to the rear pressure on the trigger without disturbing sight alignment."

 

[FL-NC]

Why do people assume that small hands need small guns?
The fact is, what is comfortable for one person may be less comfortable for another. All other things being equal, most people will shoot better with a gun that is more comfortable. Also, level of comfort with any gun can be achieved through practice.
Or better yet why do women want who don’t shoot regularly want complicated auto loaders?
I don't find autoloaders- especially modern ones- to be overly complicated. An individual's plumbing has much less to do with firearms proficiency than level of training, which is achieved through practice. There are many men carrying autos that couldn't hit the room they are sitting in due to lack of proficiency and practice.
My medium hands work fine on my CZ75B SA
And My Beretta 92FS.
As a former trainer in the army, the M9 (92) came with lots of issues, especially concerning certain shooters: DA trigger manipulation on presentation shots, and malfunctions from "limp wristing" were common problems. Soldiers with smaller hands and/or lesser grip strength had the most difficulties. My understanding from speaking to those still serving is that the new M17 pistol has largely solved many of the problems that were inherent to the M9. Remember that the military has the challenge of selecting equipment that works for users of all shapes and sizes- from the smallest Soldier at less than 100 pounds, up to the guy who is built like a linebacker in the NFL.
I do have to shift grip to drop mags and also to release safety.
For tactical competition I use my Springfield XD or my Glock. No safety to practice for. And the XD has ambi mag release. That’s what I would recommend for small hands. furthermore if one isn’t to shoot regularly but want a self defense gun I recommend revolver; no levers, switches, point and shoot. Several $300 models out there.
Generally speaking, revolvers are more difficult to gain proficiency with, especially when it comes to rapidly engaging multiple targets in the DA mode, along with the recoil that comes with wheel guns 38 special and greater. All of this is further aggravated when the revolver is used by someone with a low level of training and/or weaker hand strength. Only hits count. My 2 cents.
much obliged
Max.

 

[Antihero]

Yes, while the fact of weak hands and limp wristing I agree with, my myth statement was for the "worry for me" as this can be corrected.

During my point shooting demonstration, limp wristing is intentionally demonstrated but I point out that is due to improper grip and once proper grip is applied, limp wristing of slide not reliably cycling can be prevented.

Yes. Even using lighter target loads, shooting with just two fingers (thumb and 3rd finger) with reliable slide cycling is demonstrated which is transferring the work of grip to larger shoulder/chest/back muscles which provide resistance for the slide to reliably cycle - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...udes-towards-semi-autos.861163/#post-11339576


This from U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

"4. Checking For Proper Grip: ...

e. The rapid onset of fatigue and soreness of the shooting hand is usually the result of an incorrect grip.

f. Checking for straight to the rear recoil directly into the shooting arm and shoulder ...
​

... In the final analysis, there is only one correct grip for you. It is one that is firm; affords the individual shooter the maximum degree of control over maintaining sight alignment and allows positive, straight to the rear pressure on the trigger without disturbing sight alignment."

I personally don't have this problem, but i helped my mom thru it. No amount of hold change or exercises was gonna change how well she could pull a slide back or not limp wrist a regular sized duty caliber auto.

My point is, there are actually people who have this problem.

There are ways around using autos. You can use one that has a hammer and cock it first, basically makes the effort of drawing the slide into 2 actions each using about half the energy. You can get something that is low powered, my wife's 1911 22 needs almost no effort to pull back the slide. Hi points actually have such aheavy slide that cocking it is very easy.

Instead of cramming everyone into one solution, realize that there's many solutions and you just have to find them. I dealt with this for many years with my mom, thru many many different ideas, different guns and many iterations. While a 22 magnum isn't my first choice, 30 22magnums fired accurately and dependably is better than no gun at all

 

[Antihero]

True, although it's not as though revolvers are lighter in general.

You are definitely right. It's a problem that requires different solutions

 

[MikeInOr]

Why do people assume that small hands need small guns?

Because the last time I shot a gun with small hand was a heck of a long time ago and I don't rember it much.

I am fortunate enough to own several hand guns and when I take a newb out shooting I let them try a pretty good variety of sizes to see what works for them. My Beretta 92 with Hogue finger groove grips works great with my 2xl hands but none of my buddies like shooting it especially with the extra girth the hogue grips add. In contrast most of my friend really like my CZ75b compact but it is too small for me to shoot comfortable and will be traded off some day.

Like the general advice goes try every hand gun that you can and choose the one that fits you best.

 

[LiveLife]

No amount of hold change or exercises was gonna change how well she could pull a slide back

Another training issue and I helped plenty of shooters with this issue.

I have them reach over the slide with their thumb and index finger along the slide serrations and with wrists locked, use chest muscles to push to rack the slide as shown in 1:30 minute mark of video. (I emphasize they are "holding" the slide with the non shooting hand and "pushing" with the shooting hand) When they readily rack the slide, their eyes open up and say, "I can do this" with a big smile.

In USPSA, many shooters do this to capture the ejecting round by cupping over the ejection port instead of letting the round fall to the ground.

 

[Antihero]

Another training issue and I helped plenty of shooters with this issue.

I have them reach over the slide with their thumb and index finger along the slide serrations and with wrists locked, use chest muscles to push to rack the slide as shown in 1:30 minute mark of video. When they readily rack the slide, their eyes open up and say, "I can do this" with a big smile.

In USPSA, many shooters do this to capture the ejecting round instead of letting the round fall to the ground.

You can fix cancer and radiation treatment with training?!?! Holy crap, alert the press!

You are wrong, utterly, in every way possible.

 

[94045]

Why do people assume that small hands need small guns?
Or better yet why do women want who don’t shoot regularly want complicated auto loaders?
My medium hands work fine on my CZ75B SA
And My Beretta 92FS.
I do have to shift grip to drop mags and also to release safety.
For tactical competition I use my Springfield XD or my Glock. No safety to practice for. And the XD has ambi mag release. That’s what I would recommend for small hands. furthermore if one isn’t to shoot regularly but want a self defense gun I recommend revolver; no levers, switches, point and shoot. Several $300 models out there. IMHO. your turn.
much obliged
Max.

I think we assume to much. Five women start basic training classes. A year later two have dropped out and three have a CCW. What do they carry?

1. S&W M60 2.125" .357 Mag (.38 Spl+P)
2. S&W Shield .380 EZ.
3. Kimber Custom Lightweight 1911 .45 ACP

They carry what anyone else should. What they can operate and shoot well.

 

[LiveLife]

My point is, there are actually people who have this problem.

You can fix cancer and radiation treatment with training?

Point taken. My apologies.

My parents both in their 70s experienced multiple bouts of cancer with chemo and radiation treatment. They are still able to rack the slides of Glocks using the method I posted above.

 

[Antihero]

Point taken. My apologies.

My parents both in their 70s experienced multiple bouts of cancer with chemo and radiation treatment. They are still able to rack the slides of Glocks using the method I posted above.

My mom was a slight woman before cancer, cancer and radiation treatment had her lose 25 percent of her body mass, and she was 101lbs before it.

You seem to be very big on training and learning so take this message to heart : Learn to listen, and don't assume you are right. Assuming you are always right only makes you always wrong.

There are multiple solutions to every problem and there is no one way to fix anything. If you think the solution is always easy, you probably don't grasp the problem

 

[Zendude]

I wear a medium glove size and have trigger reach issues with DA/SA guns like the CZ 75. Rotating my hand slightly on the grip leaves me with an unstable grip especially when shooting with one hand. Even starting with the hammer in the half cocked position leaves me an uncomfortably long trigger reach with a proper grip.

 

[LiveLife]

You seem to be very big on training

Yes and I have worked with smaller, female and older shooters with physical/medical issues and helped them overcome/counter so they can shoot more effectively - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...d-anti-gun-people.849455/page-3#post-11090212

One time at the range several years ago, I heard crying in the next lane. When I looked, I saw an elderly lady obviously upset. Her husband passed away and she lived in rougher part of city. Because crime increased and her neighbors were already victimized (When federal judge released a bunch of CA inmates due to "overcrowding" in prisons), she was fearful of being raped/losing her life and brought her husband's .38 revolver but she was mostly missing a full-size human target set at 7 yards. I stopped shooting and went over the shooting basics and when she got nice tight 3" groups at multiple targets, she beamed and with tears in her eyes, thanked me and promised to continue practicing. When she left, I could barely hold back my tears and spent a long silence contemplating the evils of this world.

When I exited the range into the gun store, I exchanged a quiet silent stare with range staff who watched me and the old lady inside. They knew I have taught many new shooters how to shoot and simply gave me confirming nods. This is why guns exist. This is why I shoot. This is why I share what I know about shooting with as many people as possible. Because guns and training give potential victims of crime a fighting chance.

Perhaps my work in state government and high crime areas I grew up in and lived in made me more sensitive to victims of crime and I hold the notion that despite the physical/medical challenges, there are ways to overcome/counter so people do not become victims.

My recent group I shared defensive point shooting with included older retirees with weak hands, arthritis and shaky hands ... And many came to the training with notions that they were not able to shoot fast and accurate. By the end of our initial 4 hour training session and certainly after the second training session, they were surprised at tight groups they produced consistently - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-2#post-11175698

Yes, for me training is important and I make a point to shatter the wrong notions/myths about shooting at the start of the training which starts with shooting with eyes closed - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245

Of course, will there be cases where training just may not help because of extreme physical/medical conditions? Sure, but I believe we are talking in general terms.

Peace.

 

[Antihero]

long braggy post is long

Much what I expected as response really

 

[LiveLife]

It is what I have done to help shooters with small/weak hands.

And I do not charge to train/share with people as I do it as my "Pay it Forward" aspect of life along with many other retirement PIF activities I pursue with my wife - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-2#post-11172227

And public online forums like THR are places where people come together to discuss specific problems and solutions. For problems related to small weak hands, I offered my solutions based on real life experience.

 

[JTQ]

In USPSA, many shooters do this to capture the ejecting round by cupping over the ejection port instead of letting the round fall to the ground.

Off topic, but this comment caught my eye.

Ernest Langdon at about the :30 mark.

 

[Antihero]

It is what I have done to help shooters with small/weak hands.

And I do not charge to train/share with people as I do it as my "Pay it Forward" aspect of life along with many other retirement PIF activities I pursue with my wife - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-2#post-11172227

And public online forums like THR are places where people come together to discuss specific problems and solutions. For problems related to small weak hands, I offered my solutions based on real life experience.

Same basic response, only this time shorter.....a small step forward but learning nonetheless!

 

[LiveLife]

many shooters do this to capture the ejecting round by cupping over the ejection port instead of letting the round fall to the ground.

Ernest Langdon at about the :30 mark

Rob Leatham at 0:25 mark

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Because many of us were taught improperly that a tight/death grip is required for proper control of pistols.

And when shooters with small hands gravitate toward smaller guns, I caution them smaller guns tend to produce more snappy felt recoil compared to larger guns.

When introducing people to shooting/fast point shooting at multiple targets that require good control of pistols, I train them on push/pull method that produces neutral balanced grip

Jerry disagrees

 

[LiveLife]

Jerry disagrees

Actually, I am a fan of Jerry Miculek and follower of his methods but some of what he does is advanced shooting techniques for ultra fast shooting that many people being introduced to shooting may not be ready for.

At 16:00 mark, he states, "Light gun ... polymer framed pistol ... M&P/Glock ... I am pulling pushing at the same time ... takes the high speed oscillation from the front sight ... I get more control that way"

Besides, thread discussion is on small / women hands (not ultra high speed shooting) and my suggestion was to shift the grip work away from weak hands that will tire quickly to the larger shoulder/chest/back muscles and the push/pull method will help hold up the pistol in addition to keeping it more steady.

 

[bdickens]

Wow.

Only page 2 and this is already as contentious as the ammo/ caliber threads.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I say women are just like men... they go for the guns that feel fine in their hands, regardless of what others may think.

 

[JFrank]

My youngest Daughter shoots a full size 1911, she absolutely loves her Kimber and I got a great big thank you Daddy
J

 

[LiveLife]

I say women are just like men... they go for the guns that feel fine in their hands, regardless of what others may think.

I lost count where shooters brought their girlfriends/wives to the range to try different pistols while the guys are talking about which compact pistols are better suited, the girlfriends/wives shoot the full size 1911s/Glocks and go, "I like this". When we stop to think about it, many male shooters like shooting full size 1911s/Glocks so why wouldn't anyone else regardless of gender.

My youngest Daughter shoots a full size 1911, she absolutely loves her Kimber and I got a great big thank you Daddy

I was pleasantly surprised to see how many female shooters with smaller hands liked to shoot full size 1911. And when we asked, "Aren't you bothered by the recoil?", they give us the, "You are crazy" look.

Now, when girlfriends/wives are shooting different 9mm/40S&W/45ACP pistols, I stay quiet and firmly recommend others to do the same and let the female shooters make their own choice based on how accurate and fast they can comfortably shoot each pistol. In the past 20 years I have taught people to shoot, majority of female shooters ended up choosing 40S&W and 45ACP pistols, even for carry.

When a neighbor's girlfriend whose work got robbed at gun point wanted a carry pistol, we had her shoot various caliber pistols and we figured she may choose a 9mm compact but after shooting my Glock 23 with factory ammunition, she immediately said that was the pistol she wanted. It was also the pistol she shot the most accurate.