“This is why you don’t allow a real gun in a classroom,”

[taliv]

http://www.modbee.com/news/article49744900.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

basically, "Grand Master Phillip Rushing" was teaching a "Personal Protection Institute" gun class with a rubber gun and replaced it near the end of class, then did one more demonstration, which sadly involved shooting a student, Tom Smith, pastor at a Modesto church.

pretty serious lapse in judgement.

The paper interviewed another local instructor who, despite not having 33 years of experience instructing his own martial arts system, seemed to have his act together:

Dan Gray, owner of and firearms instructor at Trident Firearms Academy in Modesto.

“If you’re a firearms instructor long enough, you’re going to see accidents happen,” he said.

But having a real gun in a classroom “should never happen,” Gray said.

He uses as an example in his classes a case within the past couple of years of a Baltimore police officer who was leading a training simulation but had both a fake gun and a real gun. Accidentally pulling the wrong gun, Gray said, the officer shot and killed a police cadet and was sent to prison, convicted of negligent homicide.

 

[hso]

But having a real gun in a classroom “should never happen,” Gray said.

That's the only sure way to avoid a negligent discharge when you're doing anything with students in a classroom setting, not have the thing that can cause the injury you want to prevent.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

More failed here than just having a firearm in the classroom:

1. Ammo was present, apparently.
2. The guy was not treating the firearm as if it was loaded.
3. He was not pointing it in a safe direction.
4. He had his finger on the trigger.

If I recall correctly, the NRA says you cannot have both elements ammo and guns in the classroom at the same time. Real firearms are to be checked by the instructor then by at least one other student.

At my Basic Instructor course the instructor was a proponent of real firearms in class.

I usually use a blue gun to save time but occasionally I use a real firearm (no ammo in class, gun is checked by myself and two other students).

That instructor got careless and some poor pastor paid the price. Complacency has no place in the classroom.

 

[X-Rap]

In every concealed weapons classroom I've been in there were real guns. Not saying it was bad or good, just saying.
First time back in 1979 my IA county sheriff, next after CO passed concealed carry, deputy sheriff, 10 yr training req. a lawyer.
Pretty sure the 2 LEO's holstered guns were loaded, in the second class every student had their personal handgun on the table in front of them. The lawyer demonstrated various methods of concealed carry so he had at least half dozen on him.

 

[maxxhavoc]

In my CWP class, the Police Officer teaching the class used a real gun. He made a point of saying, and demonstrating, that you should check any weapon that came into your hands. If he picked it up, he checked clear. If he unholstered it, he checked clear.

He later passed the gun around the classroom, (after checking it) so new shooters could get a feel for it. The first person he handed to did not check "clear" before looking it over. He told him to write "I will always check a weapon handed to me" or something 100 times. Predictably, the student said "but it's not loaded, I saw you check it." So the instructor also told him to write "all guns are always loaded" as well. The guy thought he was kidding, until the instructor told him to leave the class. He ended up writing sentences.

Every class session (there were 6) he passed around a new rifle, revolver, or pistol so people could learn the parts and how they worked together. People ended up writing "I will keep my finger off the trigger until I am ready to fire" and "I will not point a gun at anything I don't wish to destroy" a lot. It got to be funny, but by the time we got to the range, everybody was obeying the rules, and everyone was watching to make sure others were as well.

It was an effective tool, and it seemed to work for the class.

 

[taliv]

1. Ammo was present, apparently.
2. The guy was not treating the firearm as if it was loaded.
3. He was not pointing it in a safe direction.
4. He had his finger on the trigger.

no doubt!

but it's as if he's claiming his brain was thinking he had a rubber gun holstered and so when role playing and doing demos it was safe to use, and from the time he drew it to the time he pulled the trigger, his brain didn't realize it was real, not a rubber training prop. so in his brain, none of the 4 rules applied.

x-rap, maybe we should be more specific. certainly many gun classes that are strictly lecture and live fire range time are all real guns.

 

[Coyote3855]

We use actual firearms in both places I assist with NRA Basic Pistol Classes. But no live ammunition is allowed in the classroom, and anytime a firearm is handled, it is checked clear by the handler and at least two other people in the class. Every time. Always. Any instructor not doing so would sit out a few sessions. Any student not doing so would be gently reminded. The Three Rules get repeated a lot. Point in safe direction, finger off the trigger, not loaded until ready to use.

 

[X-Rap]

taliv, I tried to be clear on it being a "classroom" situation.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

taliv, I tried to be clear on it being a "classroom" situation.

Then I would disagree with the statement: "This is why you don’t allow a real gun in a classroom."

Based on the OP, I cannot know your stance on the subject, but I do disagree with that statement.

There are times when a real gun in the class room is appropriate, but it requires diligence and not being a dope.

I treat blue guns as if they were loaded.

This "instructor" got careless and the results were tragic.

careless is as careless does.

 

[taliv]

taliv, I tried to be clear on it being a "classroom" situation.

yep, i understand. i agree with you and i wasn't trying to get semantic. i think a 'classroom' where you're doing things like, showing the parts of the guns, state concealed carry, etc are fine to have a gun, like you said, no ammo. in such a class there would be no reason to violate the 4 rules.
in some 'classrooms' which you might not really call a classroom, they might get physical, and train with fake guns where one guy is trying to point it at you and you're trying to keep him from it. if you want to say it's more like a dojo than a classroom that's fine. just don't let anyone bring a real gun in there

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Shooting your customers/clients/students is very bad for business...but it keeps happening.

 

[Mayvik]

NRA classes are no live ammo. Having a real gun is useful for several reasons.

 

[strambo]

I have both when teaching, red-gun for demonstrating grip etc. and not having to worry about muzzling students because I want to show them lots of angles of the grip. Real gun to demonstrate how it works, SA vs. DA etc.

No live ammo in the room though. I don't CCW into the classroom, don't have a gun in there that isn't part of the class and isn't cleared multiple times by myself and verified by at least one other person.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

The yellow plastic training barrels are great. You can demonstrate functions, but it cannot be fired.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-a...amp-simulation/training-barrel-prod26106.aspx

 

[JohnKSa]

I took a class awhile back and the instructor admitted to there being an unintentional discharge in a recent class. In his case it was a student who fired the gun. I noted that shortly after the class I took, he was no longer listed as instructor. I'm guessing that the company he worked for was not interested in the details, only that he had failed to maintain a safe working environment.

 

[1911 guy]

I see a problem with the owner of the establishment. Mr. Gray seems to imply that accidental discharges are inevitable. I strongly disagree and think that adopting such a view fosters the environment in which accidents will occur due to lax discipline when handling arms.

I have taken quite a few classes. Some of them have been from "safety nazis". They are also usually the most informative classes because weapon use, handling and responsibility are taken seriously. Count me in the safety nazi category.