1.0 - X power telescopic sight, versus ESD plus swing-out 3x magnifier

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Just trying to do an objective comparison of true 1.zero power optic which zooms to 4 or 5 or whathaveyou (such as the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24), versus having an ESD (dot sight, such as Aimpoint or Eotech), plus a magnifier.

For purposes of this comparison, I'll call the former a "zoom scope" and the latter an "ESD+magnif."

1. Cost. Depends on the telescopic sight chosen, but generally speaking the ESD+magnif. will cost more. Advantage: zoom scope. Example: The Trijicon 1-4x24 30mm tube is $765 most places - how much is an Aimpoint & Magnifier?

2. Weight & size. Generally speaking the ESD+magnif. will weigh more or much more, and be more bulky by a good margin, than a telescopic sight of this nature, which are usually smallish/lightish sights with obj. lenses in the 24-32mm range. Clear Advantage: zoom scope.

3. Complexity / Speed in transitioning. The telescopic sight is simpler and faster to zoom in and out, versus swinging out the arm and locking it in the out position. Also, mounting both ESD and magnifier is more complex and requires more rail room, which some rifles don't have. Advantage: zoom scope.

4. (small issue, but) Balance/Ergos. With the magnif. in the out position, the gun is not balanced the same any longer, and is somewhat "side-heavy". Slight Advantage: zoom scope.

5. Versatility of Magnification - Generally. The ESD+magnif. gives you exactly two options of magnif - one and three power. The telescopic sight gives you a continuum of choices, but let's say breaking it down by 0.5 power increments, you get roughly 6 or more zoom choices (1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, etc.), or THREE times as many choices. Advantage: zoom scope.

6. Versatility of Magnification - Top End. You get a top end maximum of 4 or 4.5 generally on such telescopic sights (let's say 4), versus 3x top end with a magnifier. So you get an additional 33% more magnification over a 3 power, with a 4 power. Advantage: zoom scope.

7. Battery Reliance. Yes with ESD + magnif. No with telescopic sight. Advantage: zoom scope. Unless you use a Leupold Prismatic or Zeiss, then it's a tie/wash.

8. Unlimited Eye Relief on 1x, and Resulting Speed of Acquisition & Engagement. Yes to ESD; No to telescopic sight. On 1x, the eye relief of a 1-4x scope can be *good* and generous, but not unlimited by any means. This is the one area where an ESD has the apparent BIG advantage. But... BUT, if you have a zoom scope that also HAS an illuminated reticle, then you can just flop the front scope cover closed on any power, and use it as an OEG with unlimited eye relief at any time, which is equally as fast as any other 1x ESD (some say faster)!!! Then you've got every single advantage of the ESD+magnif., PLUS the 7 above - EXCEPT you're back to battery reliance (so just 6 more advantages ). Advantage: None (tie/wash), IF you have an illuminated reticle/dot on your telescopic sight.

So, the bottom line, seems to me, is that the ESD+magnifier gives you the worst of all possible worlds, many times over. But a 1-4 telescopic IR sight with a front cover for OEG/unlimited eye relief use gives you the best of all worlds, except battery reliance (and even then, you ONLY have the battery reliance downside when using as an OEG!).

It's a little weird to say it, but the ONLY reason I could think of to run with an ESD + magnifier is for people with one eye (or one good eye), for whom the described OEG setup won't work.

Discuss.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Dang it, I mean to put this into "Firearm Accessories" - Can a moderator please move it there for me? Thanks.

 

[raz-0]

You miss some things or discount some things that matter that are more subtle.

1) Cost, you can do a proper zoom setup in terms of usability for about $460. That's using a good mount, and scope lever, and a DMS-1 scope. With a good scope, you are looking at about $860-900. An aimpoint with magnifier and flip out mount is about $1200. you can save a hundred or two with eotech. I'm sure there is some cheap knockoff way of doing the red-dot setup as well, so I'd consider cost a push.

3) A proper setup for a 1-X scope on an AR takes up yoru whole rail with enough room for a slim flip up BUIS. Same for a red dot plus magnifier. Unless you get a cat tail for the scope, you won't be adjusting it faster than a flip out mount. With a cat tail style lever, yes, the zoom is faster.

5) For the kind of things where you want this kind of setup for, ideally you want to go from min power to max power as fast as possible. and you really don't care about in between. More choices does not mean better here. I'd call it a push as the zoom usually has a higher top end, if you don't make the whole swing quick, you are probably i about the right neighborhood, and if you are going to try using the reticle to range or holdover, you have to time to get it to full magnification. A proper setup on a zoom will ahve a cat tail and try to get you from 1x to max zoom as fast as possible. The ESD + magnifier tries to do the same thing. So i'd call it a push.

6) Some scope makers have pushed the top end with a true 1x to 6x, with a 1.1x to 10x. The jury is out on if they have done it in a good way, or a bad one, but if max magnification is a consideration, the zoom wins, by a lot.

7) Some of the 1-X scopes have reticles that are good for fast sighting at 1x with no illumination (I like the DMS-1 reticle for this a lot), and some not so much (like the k-dot on the meopta, it illuminates well and is VERY red dot-ish, but with it off, it is much slower to aim than a red dot). Just because it is a zoom scope doesn't mean it isn't battery reliant.

8) needs to be ditched as presented. which I'll redo as 9 & 10.

9) usability at 1x. Red dot wins. With the zoom scopes, unless up real close, you have to worry about parallax and cheek weld even at 1x. The red dots are much more forgiving, even at 100 yards (although it isn't a free lunch).

10) usability at max magnification. The thing with magnified red dots is that they aren't REALLY parallax free normally (eotech might be, I haven't tried to abuse one when sighting in). Just at most usable ranges, the parallax is way less than minute of bad guy (IIRC me and a couple friends goofing around were able to get about 3 MOA error at about 65yards REALLY trying). However, you add a magnifier, and an inconsistent cheek weld, and you can start moving your groups by a LOT. I was able to get about 10" of badness myself at well under 100 yards, my friend who was asking for help making it work right was getting more than that as he was completley missing the target (he was getting decent groups with just the dot). The zoom has less eye relief and a smaller exit pupil. This may sound like a bad thing, but when you are presumably trying to hit a smaller target with the time to adjust stuff to do so, you probably have the time to adjust your head position based on the feedback form the scope telling you you are screwing up (i.e. black ring and/or blurriness). You don't get as much feedback from the separate magnifier and are free to make much larger mistakes without knowing it till the bullet is down range. So IMO slight advantage zoom.

11) battery life: aimpoint and eotech kick the living crap out of every zoom that does true 1x. dots win.

12) Reticle: The dots don't really work well for ranging and holdover. They also get larger with magnification and were already large to begin with. However, if you zero it right, they can be pretty usable for holdover out to 300 yards. The zooms have much more useful reticles for ranging, holdover, and windage. With the introduction of FFP 1-X scopes, they are even more useful. Zooms win.

13) FOV @ 100 yards. at 1x both types have gobs of FOV even close up. The difference is at max magnification at a distance. based on a brief googling, it looks like the aimpoint magnifier is 5 degrees and the eotech is degrees. Assuming I'm interpreting that stat correctly and doing the math right, thats a max of 36.6' a 100 yards (26.5 for the aimpoint). The DMS-1 is 40' max zoom, and the meopta is 25.8'. I'd call slight advantage for the zooms as you can get the best FOV advantage with them, but it isn't much.

14) durability. A good red dot will stand up to more beating than a good scope with lots of elements. advantage goes to the dots.

15) The eyes!!!: If you have an astigmatism that is not 100% correctable, the eotech can be a nightmare, and the aimpoint can suffer from some coma and be a bit of the PITA. The magnifiers mitigate this problem a bit, but scopes deal with imperfect vision a bit better IMO.

I shoot a little 3-gun, plink, and shoot from a bench. A cheap 1-X zoom is definitely the right answer for me.

 

[cz85cmbt]

Raz said anything I'd have said and some. Some 1-4 or 1-5 powered scopes have been shown with the burris fast fire mounted on the objective end to give you fast acquisition at close range. Although a cheek weld adjustment is necessary it looks like it might be nice to work with. Burris is also a great manufacturer of electronic or illuminated scopes, I would expect and hear good things about the fast fire.

 

[jlg]

I had an Eo-Tech with a flip-away magnifier on my AR and sold it...still researching a good telescopic scope to replace it.

What I DID like about the Eo-Tech with flip-away:
- very quick transition...just press a switch and the magnifier flips out of your way...slap it back over and it locks back in place behind the optic
- I guess that's about it...

What I DID NOT like about the Eo-Tech with flip-away:
- 4x magnification just wasn't enough for me. My eyesight isn't perfect...not bad enough to wear glasses all the time but bad enough that a little more magnification is very helpful
- the power buttons weren't very easy to push...I'd like something that I can turn ON/OFF easier / more quickly...more likely something that doesn't need to be turned on to work (i.e. a regular reticle with and illimunation feature)
- the eye relief was HORRIBLE! I had to be so close to it that I got scope bit almost everytime I pulled the trigger. Not that a supressed AR kicks enough for it to hurt but it still isn't pleasant.

I've actually thought about mounting a standard illuminated reticle scope (probably a Leupold Mk4) with a dot sight similar to the Doctor you see on top of the ACOG's...anyone ever tried that? Will it work?

I've also seen someone mount a scope on top and put a dot sight at a 45 degree angle to the right so you would just hold the rifle slightly sideways for CQB...seems like a decent idea but I don't know how practicle it is. Seems to me the dot sight could get hung up on things pretty easily that way.

 

[The_Hammer_Man]

http://www.impactguns.com/store/000381019028.html

That's a link to Burris XTR 1-4x scope w/ fastfire mounted on top

I have this setup on my competition rifle and love the heck out of it!

My old way of doing the red dot was to put it on a 1 o'clock mount on the rail just ahead of my scope. It worked but made transitions from long to short around "wrongside" (left handed) barricade shots nearly impossible w/o exposing yourself.

This setup is ambidextrous!

 

[Jin]

Raz-0:
15) The eyes!!!: If you have an astigmatism that is not 100% correctable, the eotech can be a nightmare, and the aimpoint can suffer from some coma and be a bit of the PITA. The magnifiers mitigate this problem a bit, but scopes deal with imperfect vision a bit better IMO.

great thread. randomly found it when i searched for astigmatism and aimpoint magnifier on google.

i just assembled an aimpoint and hendsolt magnifier setup...and this past weekend when i was trying to zero at 200 i had a horrible time as far as trying to see clearly. by the way, i have pretty bad astigmatism that isn't 100% correctable via contacts.

why am i having difficulty? Is it because the red dot projection is outside the magnifier creating a focus problem...and gets worse with persons with bad eyes?

 

[raz-0]

why am i having difficulty? Is it because the red dot projection is outside the magnifier creating a focus problem...and gets worse with persons with bad eyes?

Well you can have two things going on. If the whole dot is evenly blurry (round blur), you may need to do the equivalent of diopter adjustment. I have no idea how you go about that with the hensholdt. I suspect you move it closer or farther from the red dot, but that is just a guess.

If it exhibits coma (picture a weird blur shaped kind of like a simple fishy drawing or a magnetic ribbon sticker with the loop filled in), then it is astigmatism. You cna moderate it somewhat by decreasing contrast and brightness of the dot. I.e. dim it. But sometimes you can't.