10/22: Tuning by Adjusting Torque on the Takedown Screw?

[twofewscrews]

As a winter project I decided to accurize my 10/22 without spending an arm and a leg. My goal is to get it to consistently shoot 1/2" groups or better at 50 yards. I properly free floated the barrel (Hogue Overmold stock), stiffened the stock (jb weld), added some weight (fishing sinkers), polished the bolt and receiver (scotchbrite and sandpaper), lightened the trigger via Volquartsen (most expensive part), and rubber bedded the first 2" of the barrel (permatex). The screw an Allen head screw, not a phillps head screw. I'm considering adding a pillar and possibly, but most likely not, having the bolt professionally worked on.

It went from shooting 1" to 3" groups to shooting 1/2" to 1" groups at 50 yards using CCI Standard Velocity. While CCI Standard Velocity is great for the cost, I need more consistent ammo to reach 1/2" groups or better. I bought some Eley Target, Club, Team, and Match ammo.

I've been reading conflicting information regarding "tuning" a 10/22 by adjusting the torque on the takedown screw. Supposidly you get better/worse groups by adjusting the torque setting. Some people swear by it and others call it voodoo. I've read that it makes a difference on woods stocks and not on synthetic stocks. I've read that it won't make a difference on a pillar bedded stock, and that it will only make a difference on a pillar bedded stock. I've read that it only makes a difference if there is play between the reciever and stock. For every claim that it works I've found another claim saying otherwise.

I did a test today that was inconclusive at best, however, I was not using the best ammo. I ran 165 rounds or so of the bulk Federal 36g CPHP through the gun using 15 to 30 in lbs of torque (1 in lbs at a time). I shot 3 groups at each setting, 5 shots in each group. There was no noticable difference. Its possible if I used better ammo (more consistent in velocity, weight, etc) I would have seen a difference, but I'm not sure.

What I did find was, that as far as I can tell, 15 in lbs, 20 in lbs, and 25 in lbs rotated the takedown screw head. 16-19 in lbs and 21-24 in lbs did not rotate the takedown screw head at all. This would suggest that 15, 20, and 25 in lbs are actually creating different levels of stress/pressure between the reviever/barrel and the stock, and the other torque values did nothing. I might grab a box or two of CCI St. Vel. and try this test again next week, but I'd rather not waste what little range time I have each week on something that doesn't really seem to make a difference.

For those of you with a 10/22, what have you expierenced?
Does the amount of torque you use make a difference to your group size?
If so, what is your setup? wood vs synthetic stock, pillar or no pillar, etc

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve heard of this but never tried it. I shoot my 10/22 with peep sights so even if the gun is capable, I’m not capable of 1/2” groups.

Also remember your not after torque on a screw for torques sake. You’re after tension through the length of the screw. Small changes in rotation can make disproportionate changes in tension. Or you just bottomed out the screw.

 

[doubleh]

The 10/22 is a little difficult as the takedown screw is designed to use a quartet to tighten and loosen it. I haven seen any quarter shaped bits to fit in a torque wrench and straight blade bits, even thick ones, tend to jump the groove and bugger it up. I ground a bit to fit the curve and have experimented a little but my two rifles wear stocks I built with pillars. A little tighter than I can do with a quarter seems to help just a little. It is a small diameter screw threading into aluminium so I am hesitant to really torque it down. I have read many posts on forums over the years about stripping the action screw threads on these rifles.

 

[Captains1911]

I’ve played with it on the two 10/22s I shoot the most, both with Hogue overmolded stocks and TacSol barrels, and don’t notice any accuracy differences between 15-25 in-lbs. Therefore, I just torque mine to 25 in-lbs. However, I will say that I usually have to make minor zeroing adjustments after removing and reinstalling the actions into the stock, even with the same 25 in-lbs of action screw torque, for whatever that’s worth.

Also, I only shoot CCI SV because it’s the most accurate across all my 22s, even more so than the more expensive match grade I’ve tried.

 

[twofewscrews]

Or you just bottomed out the screw.

No way I bottomed out the screw. The difference in rotation between 15 and 25 was a 6th of a rotation or a single flat.

At 50 yards without an optic no way I'd be capable of a 1/2" group either but within 15 yards I can manage an 1" most of the time.

 

[Hartkopf]

What I did find was, that as far as I can tell, 15 in lbs, 20 in lbs, and 25 in lbs rotated the takedown screw head. 16-19 in lbs and 21-24 in lbs did not rotate the takedown screw head at all. This would suggest that 15, 20, and 25 in lbs are actually creating different levels of stress/pressure

That tells me the thread and under head lubrication is inadequate. If you are trying to dice it that fine, one inch pound at a time, you need the best moly lube. I would probably just use 5 inch pound increments but I would still use moly lube for consistency.

 

[twofewscrews]

I will say that I usually have to make minor zeroing adjustments after removing and reinstalling the actions into the stock, even with the same 25 in-lbs of action screw torque, for whatever that’s worth.

I've run into the same thing. I assume its either the barrel is sitting in slightly different place after cleaning or variations in ammo from lot to lot cause a slight shift in POI.

Also, I only shoot CCI SV because it’s the most accurate across all my 22s, even more so than the more expensive match grade I’ve tried.

I only have two 22s, a 10/22 and a Savage B-22 FVSR. CCI SV will shoot sub-moa groups at 50 using either one, but I have to really be "in the zone" to do so using the 10/22 whereas with the B-22 I just have to be consistent with my POA and breathing.

Up till now I've only run match grade ammo though my B-22. Using Eley Target I can put 10 shots into a dime at 50 yards. I've never shot anything other then CCI SV and other similar priced ammo though the 10/22 as prior to accurizing the 10/22 the best I could reasonably hope for was a 1" group, but now I've shot 5 to 6 1/2" groups (1 out of every 10 groups shot) using CCI SV so I figured I'd run some match grade ammo through it and see what happens.

 

[twofewscrews]

That tells me the thread and under head lubrication is inadequate. If you are trying to dice it that fine, one inch pound at a time, you need the best moly lube. I would probably just use 5 inch pound increments but I would still use moly lube for consistency.

I keep the takedown screw lubricated with Clenzoil, although if I'm being honest its not something I always check. Do you think lubricating the threads would really make a difference?
On my centerfire rifles I always ensure my screws are lubricated and have noticed the same thing, ie that the screw may not actually turn between 60 and 65 in lbs but will turn again at 70 in lbs.

 

[Captains1911]

I've run into the same thing. I assume its either the barrel is sitting in slightly different place after cleaning or variations in ammo from lot to lot cause a slight shift in POI.


I only have two 22s, a 10/22 and a Savage B-22 FVSR. CCI SV will shoot sub-moa groups at 50 using either one, but I have to really be "in the zone" to do so using the 10/22 whereas with the B-22 I just have to be consistent with my POA and breathing.

Up till now I've only run match grade ammo though my B-22. Using Eley Target I can put 10 shots into a dime at 50 yards. I've never shot anything other then CCI SV and other similar priced ammo though the 10/22 as prior to accurizing the 10/22 the best I could reasonably hope for was a 1" group, but now I've shot 5 to 6 1/2" groups (1 out of every 10 groups shot) using CCI SV so I figured I'd run some match grade ammo through it and see what happens.

I have a Savage B22 FVSR as well. I’ve tried Wolf Match Target in it and found it less accurate than CCI SV, but haven’t tried Eley. I have a box or two of Eley laying around so I’ll have to give it a try.

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve played with it on the two 10/22s I shoot the most, both with Hogue overmolded stocks and TacSol barrels, and don’t notice any accuracy differences between 15-25 in-lbs. Therefore, I just torque mine to 25 in-lbs. However, I will say that I usually have to make minor zeroing adjustments after removing and reinstalling the actions into the stock, even with the same 25 in-lbs of action screw torque, for whatever that’s worth.

Also, I only shoot CCI SV because it’s the most accurate across all my 22s, even more so than the more expensive match grade I’ve tried.

I mark my Marlin screws and tighten to the same rotation position instead of relying on torque. That seems to keep the zero consistent. I haven’t taken my 10/22 down completely yet, but will probably do the same for it.

 

[AzShooter1]

I could only get to 25 yards today but tried a variety of ammo and torqued between 12 - 18 inch pounds. I settled on 15 inch pounds for the tightest groups. YMMV. It does work, even with cheap ammo I could tell the difference.

I'm hoping to get to 50 on Friday, depending on the weather.

 

[Hartkopf]

I keep the takedown screw lubricated with Clenzoil, although if I'm being honest its not something I always check. Do you think lubricating the threads would really make a difference?
On my centerfire rifles I always ensure my screws are lubricated and have noticed the same thing, ie that the screw may not actually turn between 60 and 65 in lbs but will turn again at 70 in lbs.

Most of the time plain oil is inadequate. Moly lube is required if you are really checking fine measurements. When everything is perfect you won’t get “sticking” between torque readings. I’m not saying any of this will matter for the accuracy of your 10/22 though. It’s just a fundamental thing for torquing critical bolts.

 

[twofewscrews]

I settled on 15 inch pounds for the tightest groups. YMMV. It does work, even with cheap ammo I could tell the difference.

What kind of stock do you have? Synthetic or wood? Free floated or bedded?
And did 15 in lbs make the groups tighter for every brand or did different brands have different preferences?

To me at least, it would make sense given the minor variations in stocks (synthetic or wood) that one torque setting would produce better results, regardless of ammunition type/brand, then another because of the relationship between the receiver/barrel and stock. Too little torque and there is movement between between the receiver/barrel and stock which obviously will harm shot to shot repeatability. Too much torque and you depress the stock which, assuming you used the same torque setting, overtime would create movement between the receiver/barrel and stock harming accuracy.

Part of what makes me skeptical about "tuning" via torquing the takedown screw is that, from what I've read, different brands and types of ammo perform better with different torque settings.

If torque setting affects accuracy to the degree that different brands (CCI vs Winchester) and types (standard velocity vs hyper velocity, 40g vs 36g) prefer different torque setting, would it not stand to reason that different lots of ammo (same brand and type) would also prefer different torque settings? I've never heard of someone mentioning this, all I've heard is that you tune the gun for the brand/type of ammo, but never to the specific lot of ammo.

Part of what makes me believe it is that I've read about and seen targets from many different people showing that it does in fact work.
Sure some of them could be lying, but for what purpose? Without a motive, financial or otherwise, at least some people, you for example, must be telling the truth.
Just because I don't understand why doesn't mean it doesn't work.

 

[twofewscrews]

Most of the time plain oil is inadequate. Moly lube is required if you are really checking fine measurements. When everything is perfect you won’t get “sticking” between torque readings. I’m not saying any of this will matter for the accuracy of your 10/22 though. It’s just a fundamental thing for torquing critical bolts.

Do you think moly lube, or a lubricant containing molybdenum disulfide, is needed to see the difference for what we're talking about? or would something like Super Lube w/PTFE suffice?

Is it possible that its not "sticking"; there is no movement between 15 in lbs and 19 in lbs because the material is strong and does not compress, and one you increase to 20 in lbs the stock begins to compress? Or something along those lines.

Either way you've opened up a whole new can of worms for me

 

[jmorris]

It went from shooting 1" to 3" groups to shooting 1/2" to 1" groups at 50 yards using CCI Standard Velocity

Thats a big enough swing, I would play with rests and technique for now and make your results consistent before chasing after the things that have such a small effect, the changes might get lost or over looked with less than ideal testing methods.

Awhile back I tested a completely stock 10-22, except for a scope (along with a marlin 60 and remington 597) and it averaged 1.259" with 3, 5 shot groups with 3 different types of ammunition at 60 yards.

Side by side 597, 10/22, Model 60

The recent thread got me thinking that I had never had all three at the same place at the same time. The 597 I have is as it came from Remington and is my "farm" .22 so I always have something down there, brought it back yesterday. The Model 60 is my "shop" rifle and normally is without optics...

www.thehighroad.org

A swing of 1-3" at 50 yards tells me a better rest might be helpfull.

This is what it looks like shooting from the rest Ii used in that thread, with the Clark 10-22 mentioned at the end. Note, after correction, the last 3 shots go into the same hole.

One shot zero

www.youtube.com

 

[rdnktrkr]

I know nothing about the 10/22 but have been researching my Bergara B14rf and Howa1500 6.5cm. The Howa prefers 35 rear and 55ft lbs front, the Bergara I'm still playing with but I'm leaning towards the heavy side. In my reading a lot of people found using different torques was beneficial.
My Howa is in a chassis and the Bergara has aluminum pillars so their torques are a little higher than a regular stock.
I also use a lot of CCI sv, and have found Eley and Norma to be a little better, there is a big difference between shooting decent ammo and shooting bulk ammo, I feel the bulk ammo would throw off any differences a torque change would show.

 

[AJC1]

Step one would be to swap out to the Allen head cap screw. This will give you much more accurate torque results than the factory flat head. I also agitate the system, bounce the gun off the butt pad and retorque/verify. One would also imagine one has already gone through such lengths on the barrel.

 

[twofewscrews]

I know nothing about the 10/22 but have been researching my Bergara B14rf and Howa1500 6.5cm. The Howa prefers 35 rear and 55ft lbs front, the Bergara I'm still playing with but I'm leaning towards the heavy side.

For firearms with two "takedown" screws I am a believer that torque values do effect the group size. My Savage B-22, sitting in a traditional synthetic stock, has two screws and indeed does seem to have preference for a specific torque values but the torque values are the same regardless of ammunition type. Same goes for my Ruger American which is sitting in the magpul hunter chassis.

The 10/22 has a single takedown screw. Furthermore the claim I've heard most often is that the torque value affects group size and ammo brands/types shoot better or worse with different torque values. I'm very much on the fence regarding how/if torque value has an effect on the group size with a 10/22.

 

[twofewscrews]

Step one would be to swap out to the Allen head cap screw. This will give you much more accurate torque results than the factory flat head. I also agitate the system, bounce the gun off the butt pad and retorque/verify. One would also imagine one has already gone through such lengths on the barrel.

Your 100 percent right about the Allen head cap screw being more accurate for torquing then the factory flat head. I should have mentioned it, but I'm already using the Allen head cap screw. I'll have to edit the OP to reflect that.

 

[Hartkopf]

Do you think moly lube, or a lubricant containing molybdenum disulfide, is needed to see the difference for what we're talking about? or would something like Super Lube w/PTFE suffice?

Is it possible that its not "sticking"; there is no movement between 15 in lbs and 19 in lbs because the material is strong and does not compress, and one you increase to 20 in lbs the stock begins to compress? Or something along those lines.

Either way you've opened up a whole new can of worms for me

Bolts are meant to stretch. I do not believe there is variable compression strength of the material you are squeezing. Not enough to cause what you're seeing with the torque wrench. Before you can determine anything else, the friction issue should be addressed. Moly has been the choice of lubricant for threads for decades. Even if there's something better now, I would use moly lube because it's proven and cheap(ish). I only bring all of this up because you are splitting hairs one inch pound at a time AND had sticking problems. If the rotation of the bolt is not smooth and predictable, results will be even more unpredictable and unrepeatable.

 

[AJC1]

Your 100 percent right about the Allen head cap screw being more accurate for torquing then the factory flat head. I should have mentioned it, but I'm already using the Allen head cap screw. I'll have to edit the OP to reflect that.

Well if your barrel is torqued and your action is torqued my next step would be sorting ammo by rim thickness.

 

[irishlad]

A ton of info on 10/22s here.

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[jmorris]

It went from shooting 1" to 3" groups to shooting 1/2" to 1" groups at 50 yards using CCI Standard Velocity. While CCI Standard Velocity is great for the cost, I need more consistent ammo to reach 1/2" groups or better.

Get samples from here.

Rimfire Ammunition | Champion's Choice

When you find the winner, call back and buy as much of the remaining lot that you can afford.

 

[twofewscrews]

Awhile back I tested a completely stock 10-22, except for a scope (along with a marlin 60 and remington 597) and it averaged 1.259" with 3, 5 shot groups with 3 different types of ammunition at 60 yards.

From what I've read and seen the accuracy from one 10/22 to another can be very different. My friend bought the same model I did, model 31143 which comes with a scope, and there was a noticable difference in accuracy when they were both stock. His shot 1" to 2" groups whereas mine shot 1" to 3" groups. Mine now shoots anywhere from 1/4" to 1 1/2" groups.

Thats a big enough swing, I would play with rests and technique for now and make your results consistent before chasing after the things that have such a small effect, the changes might get lost or over looked with less than ideal testing methods.

I use a front and rear bag or a bipod and rear bag. I didn't always but when testing to see what effect if any the modification I have made have had I try to remove myself from the equation as much as possible.

These are the groups I'm getting on a good day with the modifications I've done so far. The smallest group I managed was roughly 1/4" x 1/4" (1/2 MOA).

I'm not saying my technique couldn't use work, some of those groups are terrible, but I think I'm a good enough shot to see if the modifications I've made have had any effect on accuracy. I also shoot anywhere between 20 to 30 groups, 5 shots each, to determine what effect if any the modifications have had.

 

[twofewscrews]

A ton of info on 10/22s here.

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Thats where I got the notion of rubber bedding the barrel instead of traditional bedding. They have alot of conflicting information too.