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+1000 meter sights on mil-surp guns- why?

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natedog

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After my thread "How far can you hit a man sized target with iron sights" thread, I found that the maximum most people can get hits with iron sights, from a rest, with a sling is 500 meters, at known distances and controlled circumstances. My K-31 has graduations up to 1500 meters. My question is : Why? At 300 meters the front blade almost completly covers the target, so what good are 1500 yard graduations? Were there super riflemen back then with ultra-vision and shooting skills?
 
The first thing that comes to mind is the practice of volley fire on an advancing formation.
There are most likely some other reasons, they just don't come to mind at the moment.
 
I think it's a throwback from the pre-WWI days when the generals were envisioning huge amounts of troops laying down immense volleys to accompany artillery. My VZ24 has sights out to 2000 meters also, and it's quite rediculous. The lowest range setting is 200 meters so it hits a foot high or so at 100 yards. I really don't think that there is that much drop with an 8mm bullet from 100 to 200 yards, but what the hey!
 
Lessons from the Boer War.

The Boers had many marksmen who were accomplished at long range shooting.

The British drew the lesson that the counter was long range volley fire which they proceeded to do to silence the Boers.

From these same battles the Germans drew the lesson of the importance of skilled marksmen. After all, the Germans did have the jager tradition.

Initially during the Great War, the British were able to employ long range volley fire effectively. Then trench warfare set in and then the Germans had the upper hand with their jagers equipped with scoped rifles.
 
Volley fire en masse is the only way they could hit anything at those ranges as the firearms themselves were no where near accurate enough individually. Optimism will not make the rifle that accurate.
 
Most of these rifles were designed in the late 19th Century, for use in the massed infantry tactics of the period. For a visual aid, look up battlefield paintings of, say, the Franco-Prussian War. The sights aren't there for a soldier to aim at another soldier, they're there for a company or batallion of soldiers to fire at another company or batallion of soldiers or at an artillery battery or whatever. (Remember, a rifle of the time could shoot just as far as the artillery of the era; practically, at least, since both were limited to line-of-sight, and both could pretty much shoot as far as you can see. Is that battery of quick-firing 12-pounders on that ridge over there giving your unit trouble? "Company! Volley fire at 1200 yards, make ready! Fire!" and see how the cannon cockers appreciate you dropping a beaten zone on them. :) )
 
The Norwegian 1894 Krag (6.5x55) has graduations to 2200 meters (2400 yards).

AK Mike, although that very optimistic graduation was for volley fire, they did compete with those rifles at 1000 meters back then, prone with a sling. I have seen trophies indicating that it would have been very hazardous for your health to stand in front of the targets. And those rifles, at least some of them, will still shoot moa or better a century later.
 
Palma is fired at 1000 yards with 155gr .308 with 30" barrels. Must be prone, from a sling. Rifles are bolt action and use front and rear aperatures.
 
Even with modern military weapons, there's a doctrinal difference between "maximum range - point target" and "maximum range - area target".

On the M16A2, I believe it's something like 550m point target, 800m area target.

Not quite the same as volley fire, but it does recognize that a firearm can have some suppressive/massed use beyond it's accurate range.
 
Also keep in mind that the guys who designed the guns had to be at least part engineer; on paper the math could have suggested a longer effective range than reality yielded. It's not as if firearm design went from stone-age to uber-scientific overnight...they knew their Newtonian physics as well as anybody else, maybe better, seeing as how they had to do the math by hand and they didn't have a computer with a physics engine to help with it.
 
Volley fire is the answer. Machine guns were few and far between - volley fire was the infantry unit's best shot at longer range fire. IIRC volley fire trials were done in England using long canvas screens six feet high as the targets, to simulate columns of marching troops. Some of the trials were fired at such extreme ranges that some of the bullets did not penetrate the screens.

Then, of course, there's the tradition that the SMLE barrel harmonics make it extremely accurate at about 2300 yards, but I can offer no more on that.
 
Extremely long range firing was not necessarily against massed troops or even visible targets. Prior to the use of machineguns, armies envisioned employment of rifle fire for interdiction firing. The target could be a staging area, a cross roads, a railway station, an artillery emplacement, or some other relatively large area. The target could be behind a tree line, or even on the other side of a hill. An aiming point, visible to the shooter, was chosen, the sights adjusted for the selected range, and a massed unit, even as large as a regiment, fired all at once on command, hence the term "volley firing".

It almost goes without saying that anyone actually hit by such firing was just plain unlucky, but the idea was to affect morale and disturb the enemy's activities, not necessarily to kill anyone. Still, a thousand or so bullets landing in an area every few seconds would tend to give troops on the receiving end the "willies".

At least that was the theory. Was it ever used in combat? I have found no mention of such firing in any battle history, but that does not mean it wasn't used. In any case, it was possible and the military wanted rifles that could do it if necessary.

The rifle fire at the battle of Mons was not volley firing; it was not especially long range and was aimed fire. Its accuracy and rapidity was what caused the Germans to believe machineguns were in use, rather than rifles.

Jim
 
a horse is much bigger than a man so your chances of crippling a gun team, supply train or brigade of cavalry were much higher.
 
"AK Mike, although that very optimistic graduation was for volley fire, they did compete with those rifles at 1000 meters back then, prone with a sling. I have seen trophies indicating that it would have been very hazardous for your health to stand in front of the targets. And those rifles, at least some of them, will still shoot moa or better a century later."

M67 - I agree, there are always exceptions to the rule. However, even though many firearms could lob a round that far, those that could do so with competition accuracy, as well as the shooter who had that capability and skill, were not commonplace. It was not in the capability of the average soldier using the average issue firearm.
 
Some Briton invented a device that was supposed to take all the guesswork out of volley fire and make it a lot faster.

The desired range was dialed into a device on the side of the stock, and then the muzzle elevated. When it hit the preset point, the sear was tripped and the rifle fired.

Supposedly this would allow the troops to fire from the kneeling position if desired.

It was complex and expensive and never put on many rifles, IIRC.
 
Only one film I know of shows volley fire tactics in action--"The Lighthorsemen." In the final charge, Mauser-armed Turk soldiers are being directed to lower their tangent sights notch by notch in tandem with the cannon. However the horses charge in too fast and when they arrive you can see that their tangents are still set to 500 meters or so. The Turks are shooting over the heads of the horsemen because their officer failed to tell them to lower the tangent! I thought it was a nice, subtle touch. And a good example of why tightly-coordinated volley fire wasn't too practical.
 
There are some instances of volley fire in the very early days of WWI. In a pre-war (The Great War, or WWI) small arms book, I have the table where, if the target is 1,200 yards away, hidden for view, 'have the men set their sights for 1,400 yards and aim at a point 100 yards away...' IIRC these tables had to be memorized to become an NCO.

In "A Rifleman went to War" by McBride, there is frequent mention of 'floaters', rounds hitting toops well behind the trenches - sometimes 1,000 or more yards behind the trenches. Was this aimed fire, or volley fire? It must have been common, as it come up in several other WWI histories. Hits could be made, but usually not at the man aimed at.

My MkIII SMLE has the additional 'volley" sights, mounted on the stock and along the front sight. I believ the upper range was 2,400 yards. My Pattern '14 has a volley rear sight fitted as well.

Keep in mind, machineguns were not common in the early days of WWI, and not well accepted for quite a while.
 
"...the firearms themselves were no where near accurate enough individually..." Nonsense. You evershoot a Mk III Lee-Enfield? Or a 1903A3 Springfield? The 1,000 yard sight are, indeed, there for long range indirect fire. Volley fire is something else altogether.
 
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