1081 rounds of 10mm, ok, I am sore

[Peter M. Eick]

Ok, we are loaded up and ready to go. Rules are 50 shots per target, all loads were 8.7 grns of 800x with a 180 grn MBC TCFP (max load from IMR manual). This is my plinker lead load and clocks in around 1200 give or take depending on the gun. All were shot at 15 yrds offhand.

I have not been shoot much in the last year due to family issues. So this is the first time I have been banging away with a high powered handgun in about a year. I am actually pleased that the targets show I am not as bad as I expected. Things were coming back about the time fatigue kicked in.

I was mostly testing the Witness Hunter (top gun) since it was a prize I won and was just trying to get a feel for what it could do relative to my G20 (lower picture) with the KKM comped barrel on it.



I was having trouble with the glock recoil and trigger. I kept trying to steer the shot in and force the break. This does not work for me and I was getting better and better as time went on with the G20. I was just using my offhand rifle technique of squeezing when the sights are right and letting the shot just happen. This target is representative of the G20's all day. Scattered but I can see the potential.



You can never have enough 15 round mags for the g20 and its ilk. Lots of fun to just keep banging away with it mag after mag.

Switching to the Witness Hunter 10mm.






The targets to me show I was getting the hang of the Hunter. Each mag change I tended to throw a flier and then I would drop the rest into a nice general group. Toward the end though fatigue was kicking in the sharp checkering of the hunter was starting to abrade skin. That first round flier is probably just a new gun working its way in. I vaguely remember my last Witness did that until I got it up over about 2000 rounds.

The Hunter is definitely a target shooter. When I would bear down and really focus it could drop round after round into the same spot and then I would relax and start to pattern again. I need to work on that problem of relaxing. It is all about front sight focus but not relax after 35 rounds in the group.

So, it was a good day at the range. Clean up was not bad. Both guns had a bit of lead in them but considering they had over 500 rounds per gun in them of lead reloads I cannot complain much. I probably should up the power a bit and it would probably clean up. The lewis lead remover pulled it right out though.

Thinking forward I can see a scope or red dot on the Hunter. It is all set up for it and the gun is accurate enough to make it worth the investment.

Thinking of the G20, it is the only gun I sold and then bought it back again. As much as I don't like the flexible (plastic) frame, I have to give the gun its due and say it is easy to shoot for rounds and rounds in one day.

So path forward, clean and reload the brass, work on focusing on the concentration during the full 50 rounds per target, get more mags for the Hunter and get back to the range more often.

I have not shot this many 10mm rounds in one day since I broke in my Les Baer HWML 10mm. That was a long day but this only took me 3 hours or so. I will say I am sore though. 1081 rounds of 10mm is a lot for me now. How times change in a few years.

 

[jhb]

Nice shooting and a whole lot of it. Thanks for sharing with us.

 

[bannockburn]

Reminds me of the time I broke in my first semi-auto shotgun: 250 rounds of high brass field loads. Boy did my shoulder hurt for a few days afterwards! One trick I learned quite a few years ago is to run a mag or two of jacketed ammo through your gun to help clear some of the lead out of the barrel.

 

[Fremmer]

How does the lead remover work? Is it a liquid?

 

[OilyPablo]

Have you done any trigger work with your Glock?

I have a 20SF and of all the one at at a time changes I have made, the 3.5# disconnector and polishing made the largest difference to bring my grouping WAY down. I was even surprised. The frame size and cruuuuunch stock trigger were not at all compatible with with my shooting style. Nor comfortable for concentrating on rapid follow up shots. It's so easy to do, I should have done it earlier.

On a second note. Now I have to get a Witness Hunter. So thanks for THAT!

 

[Thermactor]

That's one EXPENSIVE range session - if you buy factory ammo. Good thing you reload! Problem with reloading is that you tend to shoot more, so the savings are moot!

I pray for your wrists.

Lovely guns, nice groups. Now get some rest.

 

[orionengnr]

Good shooting.

I'm hoping you are on a space of your own, where you can retrieve all of your own brass.

That is my biggest problem shooting my 10mm...I shoot on a public range, my DW throws the brass three counties over (or indoors, bounces them off the wall hard enough to send them who-knows-where...) and I spend too much time wondering where my brass is going to concentrate on shooting well, or enjoying the session.

As a result, my 10mm DW sits in the safe, and as a secondary result, I have not yet purchased the G20SF I wanted about three years ago.

 

[Elkins45]

How does the lead remover work? Is it a liquid?

Nope, it's mechanical.

http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleani...ead-remover/lewis-lead-remover-prod21587.aspx

 

[agtman]

Great field report, Peter! And great pics too. Thanks.

 

[Trent]

> 1000 rounds of 10mm in one 3 hour session?

Wow, that's actually pretty dang impressive!

Grip and consistent stright-back trigger pull are both going to be more important on the lighter weight gun. I sometimes use a comparison like that to show technique issues that may need to be remedied, comparing groups a student shoots with both a heavier and lighter gun in the same caliber with the same (or nearly so) barrel length.

Make sure you aren't using any muscles you don't need to use.

Also study the geometry of how your trigger finger is aligning - might experiment with rotating your strong hand a little inward or outward slightly at the wrist, which will tweak how the trigger finger contacts. (as opposed to bending at the second index finger knuckle more)

Good shooting, sounds like a fun day was had.

 

[Trent]

A set of photos to illustrate finger position changing with wrist rotation;

Natural one handed grip. Note the knuckle is forward of the trigger? That causes a non-straight-back trigger pull, and opens groups up.


Two handed grip uses slightly more rotation on the strong hand, which moves the finger back. Note the knuckle is slightly behind the trigger line. This will cause the pad of your finger to travel straight back when you squeeze.


(It also will change the muscles used from those in the hand, to those near the elbow; try moving JUST the finger past the knuckle without using any muscles in your hand. It can be done; using muscles in your hand to squeeze the trigger will slightly alter your point of aim when the trigger breaks due to the tension...)

This grip aligns your trigger finger, extended, on one side, with the extended thumb of the support hand on the other side. It's incredibly stable and much easier to be consistent on the trigger. (Feels a little odd for a bit at first, though, especially if you started out shooting pistols one handed)


That allows your trigger finger to bend a natural 90 degree angle at the second knuckle to contact the trigger, which helps you pull the trigger back more straight, and more consistently.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

As a reloader, 10mm is my favorite. The size cases are perfect for easy picking up and the large primer is easy to seat in the progressive. It is easy to make accurate 10mm loads. I think I probably blew about $80 worth of lead, powder and primers but it was fun.

Trent. I really appreciate the pictures. I will have to watch it carefully next time. I can see how that would happen and it may be the cause of some of my issues as fatigue kicked in.

Question about the trigger on my G20. No it is fully stock. I need to do a trigger spring change on it and I need to change the sights on it. I am starting to think about doing that in the future.

 

[OilyPablo]

$80? That is almost nothing compared to factory ammo. Check out some of Glock trigger videos. If you can reload ammo you will be like me - wondering why you didn't do it earlier.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I reload a lot. So for my Pro2000 has done about 330,000 rounds since I bought it in 2000. Many of those are 10mm's. Like I said it is my favorite to reload.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Looks like you adjusted the trigger on that hunter out for longer pulls?

Nice Pistols those hunters. I have a lower end Elite match in 10mm and love it. Real tack driver.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

No the hunter is exactly how it came out of the box. I won an AR in a competition and don't do the 223, so I traded it on the Hunter and some mags. It is one of the very few NIB guns I have.

 

[Trent]

Trent. I really appreciate the pictures. I will have to watch it carefully next time. I can see how that would happen and it may be the cause of some of my issues as fatigue kicked in.

That slight little change could help you halve your group size if you have average to larger sized hands. Takes a little practice to get used to it and a little more to establish your master grip right on the draw.

The more positive control of the trigger, by adjusting the grip and using different muscles to "squeeze" the trigger finger, should really help straighten that out and give you more endurance for longer range sessions as you are using a bigger muscle group in your forearm to squeeze the finger. (practice bending the finger at the 2nd knuckle without using any hand muscles, while leaving everything in your hand relaxed .. I can't show the feeling in pictures but if you do it right you'll be using a muscle group clear up by your elbow to move that joint, which all but eliminates any movement of the hand at the time of the trigger pull & break)

Glocks, being lighter, are a bit more persnickety about technique, and trigger pull issues will be compounded because they move around easier (less mass). Particularly shooting what you were shooting (10mm) and the # of rounds you went through, it's going to be a challenge.

When I did the TV show for Adventure Sports Outdoors to cover IL concealed carry, I used my Glock and dropped 'em in the X ring, even with the stress of shooting in front of a camera.



I punched the X ring clear out, in fact




Those aren't special match rounds or anything that I'm shooting. Just my plinking load, bulk berry's plated lead pills with bullseye behind them.

Anyway Glocks are plenty capable of impressive accuracy but they are woefully unforgiving of trigger control errors! (Same phenomenon on my FN FiveSeven; that thing is so light, and kicks so hard, it was a real PITA to master; but now I can pop soda cans at 100 yards with good frequency)

ETA: I'm still floored that you can get through a range day with 1000+ rounds of 10mm in a few hours... man that makes my arms cramp just thinking about it.

And sorry if I intruded with advice - with as good as you were shooting the heavier gun, I was pretty sure I could pin down the issue with the lighter one just by comparing the targets. You've got a hell of a baseline, just need to finesse it a little now.

 

[Walkalong]

Great shooting Peter!

I really like the look of that Witness Hunter. Maybe one day it will be the 10MM I have never had. I have a standard Witness in .38 Super, and really like it.

 

[Catshooter]

Nice report Mr. Eick. Good to see you back at it.

I shoot about 5 to 600 rounds a year through my Winchester 94 in 38-55 for lever action silhouette. These are a 285 grain home cast bullet at almost 1800 fps.

At the end of the season I'll take a Q-Tip and swab around the bolt face and action. Do nothing to the barrel. I get zero leading. The reason is fit, bullet to bore. The boys over on the Cast Boolits forum have really been advancing the art. Making it much easier and productive to cast.

Shoot on!


Cat

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Walkalong,

They day I went out, the decision was shoot these 10's or shoot my Witness Elite Match in 38 Super. I agree, the Witness in 38 Super is near perfection. It is accurate and fun at the range!

 

[suncoastarmory]

Now thats a great day at the range! I really like the Tanfoglio line of pistols, especially the Stock II in 10mm. Looks like your Hunter is a winner.

 

[tipoc]

Nice shooting and nice brief report.

tipoc