10mm resurgence

[dylan84]

This is what I get in quickload for both in a 4.25" barrel. Actually about an 85 fps difference with this bullet. This is the bullet I use in my SR40 as my bear bullet. I get 1090 over my chronograph with 7.5 grains of longshot, and I do load out a little longer than sammi OAL

View attachment 1127041

View attachment 1127042

Wow that is way closer than I would have thought with that heavy a bullet. I kind of figured ramshot enforcer would be a good candidate for powder! Accurate No 7 was going to be my next 40 powder to try out.

I would wager that if one was to actually collect enough data to compare the effectiveness on a bear with either cartridge the difference in effectiveness would be nil.

 

[someguy2800]

At 5" barrel length the 10mm is starting to take a little more advantage of its case capacity with a maximum difference of 96 fps

 

[dylan84]

The righteous thing for CZ to do is build a long slide CZ97 in 10mm! That is a total dream as they are phasing out pretty much all their classic steel stuff. I still can't get very excited about plastic guns. I might have to find a Witness again or build a 1911 in 10mm.

 

[someguy2800]

Wow that is way closer than I would have thought with that heavy a bullet. I kind of figured ramshot enforcer would be a good candidate for powder! Accurate No 7 was going to be my next 40 powder to try out.

I would wager that if one was to actually collect enough data to compare the effectiveness on a bear with either cartridge the difference in effectiveness would be nil.

Yeah that's what I concluded. Either of these are going to probably have several feet of penetration in gel so I don't think 80 or 100 fps is that much to get worked up about personally. WFN cast bullets don't really rely on velocity to work. Both are great cartridges, but there are some nice firearms options in 40 s&w that just aren't available in 10mm. My personal two 40 s&w's are an SR40 and a Kahr P40. I would jump at the chance to buy either one of these in 10mm if such a thing had existed, but they don't. The P40 especially I think is in a niche that I don't think any gun was ever available chambered in 10mm. A sub 1" wide single stack that is also sub 20 ounces.

 

[someguy2800]

The righteous thing for CZ to do is build a long slide CZ97 in 10mm! That is a total dream as they are phasing out pretty much all their classic steel stuff. I still can't get very excited about plastic guns. I might have to find a Witness again or build a 1911 in 10mm.

If I could have my wish it would be a CZ97 with a 75 compact length alloy frame and probably a 13 round magazine.

 

[21H40]

If 40 and 10 are so close in performance, why is 40 recoil commonly understood as "reasonable" or "sharp" but 10mm is overwhelming and massive? (see various other 10mm threads from this month).

 

[Zaydok Allen]

CZC did a conversion of a CZ97 to 10mm a few years back. But the price was stupidly high. Not dropping $2500-$4000 on a 10mm gun I'm taking to the woods.

 

[someguy2800]

If 40 and 10 are so close in performance, why is 40 recoil commonly understood as "reasonable" or "sharp" but 10mm is overwhelming and massive? (see various other 10mm threads from this month).

As mentioned both cartridge's tend to be downloaded from the factory but you can still buy really hot 10mm from companies like buffalo bore and underwood. 40 s&w was intentionally underloaded because it was made to fulfil the FBI's request of a 180 grain bullet at 1000 fps. It doesn't take 35,000 psi to meet that spec, so the factory loads were always less than full pressure and have continued to be loaded to similar specs. I suspect most factory 40 s&w ammo is actually probably around 25,000-30,000 psi. Also the original glock 40 s&w pistols, which were adopted by law enforcement agency's in the 10's of thousands had a very large unsupported area at the bottom of the barrel that was occasionally known to bulge out the brass or even blow it out. Often known as the "glock bulge". If you buy once fired 40 s&w brass from ranges you will occasionally find brass with the glock bulge that can't be reloaded because its so blown out. I think there is an understandable hesitancy among the ammo manufactures to load hot 40 s&w ammo because they don't want to get sued from people shooting them in glocks with unsupported chambers.

On the 10mm side it should be noted that some people lament that even 10mm defensive ammo you can buy from mainstream manufactures like federal is weaker than the stuff that was sold in the 80's and 90's. Well that's true but its been known that some of the original factory loaded 10mm ammo from the 80's was way over saami pressure. Like the 1300 fps 200 grain load quoted above. According to quickload that's not even possible at saami pressure, but people have been doing it for nearly 40 years now in strong pistols with supported chambers and not blowing themselves up, which goes to show that saami pressures are guidelines. A lot of the factory range type ammo is pretty underloaded even compared to full power 10mm that actually meets saami specs, the reason for that I don't really know.

 

[WrongHanded]

The idea that anyone has a safe SAAMI spec .40S&W load with a 200gr bullet to over 1,100fps from a service length barrel, is simply unbelievable!

As in, I don't believe it.

Quickloads is a neat modelling program, but if such a load is so achievable, why isn't Buffalo Bore or Underwood loading them that fast? They're only claiming 1,000fps with such 200gr loads. Meanwhile they claim 1,200fps or more with 10mm.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Nice! A little slow, but good enough for warmups. Is that SPP brass, Lennyjoe?

Not sure. Just popped up in my email. I only buy Underwood 10Mm and reload the rest

 

[21H40]

Quickloads is a neat modelling program, but if such a load is so achievable, why isn't Buffalo Bore or Underwood loading them that fast? They're only claiming 1,000fps with such 200gr loads. Meanwhile they claim 1,200fps or more with 10mm.

I am inclined to believe Buffalo Bore's numbers. They make a point of telling you what guns were used to get them.

I think comparing the 40 and 10 version of a 165 grain plays to the 10's disadvantages while maximizing the 40's advantages. I think comparisons should start at 200 grain to 220 grain. The larger projectile is where the extra capacity becomes useful.

 

[dylan84]

I still wonder why the 10mm gets the extra pressure with it's large pistol primer and the lack of supported chambers. Another SAAMI mystery. There are questionable platforms for both cartridges.

 

[someguy2800]

The idea that anyone has a safe SAAMI spec .40S&W load with a 200gr bullet to over 1,100fps from a service length barrel, is simply unbelievable!

As in, I don't believe it.

Quickloads is a neat modelling program, but if such a load is so achievable, why isn't Buffalo Bore or Underwood loading them that fast? They're only claiming 1,000fps with such 200gr loads. Meanwhile they claim 1,200fps or more with 10mm.

Those reasons were already discussed above

 

[dylan84]

The idea that anyone has a safe SAAMI spec .40S&W load with a 200gr bullet to over 1,100fps from a service length barrel, is simply unbelievable!

As in, I don't believe it.

Quickloads is a neat modelling program, but if such a load is so achievable, why isn't Buffalo Bore or Underwood loading them that fast? They're only claiming 1,000fps with such 200gr loads. Meanwhile they claim 1,200fps or more with 10mm.

Yeah I just ran the numbers on the Gordon's Reloading tool and 1000 fps was all I was able to come up with. I don't have Quickload. They are knocking right on SAAMI's door! lol

 

[Buzznrose]

Hmmm. Strange to hear that the G22 wasn't good enough until the Gen 5. I suppose I've missed all the stories of the Gen 4 G22s falling apart. I better check the safe and see if mine has disintegrated.

I agreed based on my understanding that the Gen 5 is a bit heavier and more stout, taming recoil. I’d also heard it said by folks who use the guns for duty that the .40 Glocks had a shorter lifespan than the 9MM equivalent. Of course, as Glock would likely replace any damages due to wear and tear, maybe not such a big deal?

Plus, I’d get an MOS model…

But I absolutely agree with you that the Gen 4 and older Glocks are good guns. I have a G23-4 that has many thousand rounds through it. It’s parked on standby in the house.

 

[someguy2800]

Yeah I just ran the numbers on the Gordon's Reloading tool and 1000 fps was all I was able to come up with. I don't have Quickload. They are knocking right on SAAMI's door! lol

Lets compare numbers and see if we can identify the discrepency.

The bullet figures I am using are a 200 grain bullet with .638" length, seated at 1.135" oal length. Case capacity of 21.5 gr h2o, 4.25" barrel length, 35,000 psi max. Does Gordons use start initiation pressure?

 

[dylan84]

Screenshot (182)

• dylan84
• Jan 13, 2023

Lets compare numbers and see if we can identify the discrepency.

The bullet figures I am using are a 200 grain bullet with .638" length, seated at 1.135" oal length. Case capacity of 21.5 gr h2o, 4.25" barrel length, 35,000 psi max. Does Gordons use start initiation pressure?

Ok sorry for the delay. Been a busy day in the shop! Here is a screen shot of everything that I have plugged in.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Agree. I’m interested in a G23-5 personally. Heard it’s a nice shooter.
I’ve put over 10K rounds through my G23-4, but haven’t shot it much lately.

I’ve always thought it was kinda hypocritical that guys who think both the .38 Spl and .357 Mag have a place while .40 should be eliminated and only 10MM should remain.

I like them all! But I do admit to really like shooting the 10MM lately.

G23-3 was my 1st serious hand gun! I miss it, compact and powerful

 

[WisBorn]

Purposely loading .40S&W above SAAMI max is foolish. But hey, the only thing stopping you is fear and common sense.

Agree! why risk damaging your pistol?

 

[tommy.duncan]

Purposely loading .40S&W above SAAMI max is foolish. But hey, the only thing stopping you is fear and common sense.

Remember, common sense is a flower that doesn't grow in everyone's garden.

 

[sparkyv]

Me too.

and reload the rest.

and the lack of supported chambers

Mine are well supported...so was my SR1911-10.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I evaluated my G40’s barrel and a G20KKM barrel there is a slight difference two support wise.

 

[dylan84]

I evaluated my G40’s barrel and a G20KKM barrel there is a slight difference two support wise.

View attachment 1127186

When I had my G21 45 I loaded some IMR800X and worked up to Hodgdon's posted max. I measured slight expansion into that little feed ramp cut but wasn't too bad. Pretty much full length sized back out. The 40 and 10mm cases are more robust and smaller diameter (obviously) that make them much more savvy to higher pressures. I don't really have any experience shooting Glocks in either of those calibers so I don't know what the hotter loads do to brass but I would guess it would be fine.

 

[someguy2800]

Screenshot (182)

• dylan84
• Jan 13, 2023

Ok sorry for the delay. Been a busy day in the shop! Here is a screen shot of everything that I have plugged in.

I see the differences. Gordan's is using a case capacity of 20.5 grains, whereas quickload is using 21.5 grains. Also the bullet you are simulating is .685" long and the bullet I am using is only .638" long, so there is a significant difference in case capacity between our simulations. This is the bullet I am using for my simulations and for my real life loads.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-noe-200gr-wfn-pb/

If I use your numbers for case capacity and bullet length I also get a max velocity of 995 FPS. I bet if you use my numbers you will probably also get about 1100 FPS. I'll have to go measure some cases and see what the real world case capacity is

 

[21H40]

With 40 and 10 being so close in pressures, velocities, and dimensions, why are 10mm pistols always heavier or have extra heavy springs added?

I remember reading (in the 90's) that 40 was great because you could use it in a platform designed for 9mm. Seems like that should work for 10mm, too.